Can someone explain to me what the h*ll this is about??

[o2scuba]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


I don't know but they often use tripods for the same reason.

This is a big issue with me. The fact is I can't think of a situation where practicing a skill while planted on the bottom serves a useful purpose. Just because you can breath a free flow or share air easily planted on a platform is absolutely no indication of what will happen when you do it midwater. Practice off the bottom. It isn't the skill that takes practice, it's diving and doing the skill at the same time. That's what needs to be practiced and without learning to do both you're not doing anything.


Oh, it's way easier. It just isn't productive. I have students do some skills over a platform. That way if a mistake is made we don't silt out the quarry. We never do them while planted on the platform. Teaching with students planted on the bottom is just a way to avoid having to teach them to dive. It's not that it has to do with the lack of buoyancy skills but rather it's the cause of the lack of buoyancy skill.

Agreed.

But teaching new divers this skill on the platform/sand DOES introduce them to the skill making them more comfortable (and successful) doing the same thing later in mid-water later. I feel that teaching a new diver to share air in mid-water without having them practice on the bottom first creates more potential problems. I prefer to have them comfortable with the actual air sharing skill before throwing in the bouyancy and ascent. You gotta crawl befor you can walk. Once comfortable with the procedure of air sharing, then have students pratice in mid-water. Have them perform the skill as both the doner and receiver and include a safe ascent, bearing in mind that once on the surface the ooa diver must oral inflate. Of course as the instructor you need to be in control ie: using an ascent line (as described in the PADI Instructor manual) so as to avoid an accidental rapid ascent.

Regarding the picture. I haven't even looked at it yet. I will now. I know a lot of us have been less than satisfied with some of the marketting ads for PADI, such as: ads that show instructors entering the water with dangling consoles/hose entanglements, no hand on mask etc., Instructors kneeling on the bottom with their backs to the class.

Ever see the one that promotes being a dm. A girl lying on the beach during her lunch break. This creates the impression that being a dive professional is like being on an extended vacation. No wonder so many people assume that all instructors are less than competant. Many are, but that is due to poor training, not poor advertizing.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

As regards to the picture linked to the original post, I initially thought it was just a routine file photo (like they use in the OW manuals) until I noticed the doubles and deco bottles. I'll admit that's a poor representation of what they should be advertising ... in an organization as large as PADI, one has to wonder if perhaps the editorial staff who creates these things are themselves qualified divers (at least at the tech level). My guess is that the photo was staged by someone who doesn't understand tech diving, and that the people in the photo are underwater models following a script.

Either way, it doesn't make me feel good about the quality of education I'd get by pursuing such a program ... there's no room in scuba for inattention to details, and that's what this picture says to me.

But I also want to comment on the following ...

Whirling Girl once bubbled...


Buoyancy control is alot more than just practice; I wonder if the students in the picture could do it in the gear they are wearing and with the weight they are carrying. I think being able to maintain neutral buoyancy and also perform tasks requires that you dive a balanced rig, and are not overweighted. So your configuration and weighting would have to change as well to even give you the option of doing things neutral rather than kneeling on the bottom.

Teaching students neutral buoyancy from the beginning takes care of multiple issues; buoyancy control, proper weighting and diving a balanced rig. I see students pick it up pretty quickly when they are challenged to do so and aren't really given the option of kneeling on the bottom, but then again, those students are also diving a DIR configuration, and aren't overweighted.

Margaret

It would be impossible, looking at the picture, to determine the weighting or trim of the divers in question. It's easy to make assumptions, but in this case I see no way they can be validated. As I said earlier, most of the photos that end up in publications like this one are scripted ... and in no way represent the actual skills of the divers in question.

Furthermore, good buoyancy control is all about practice. Just getting your equipment "dialed in" can take several dives ... especially if you're a newer diver who's working with their first set of gear. Gaining good hovering skills also requires an awareness of how your body responds in the water column to subtle movements ... and that takes practice. Learning to control your position with your breathing is another skill that requires practice to perfect. It's the rare individual who can just "get it" during a class session ... or even with only a few dives.

And does ANYONE teach OW students in a DIR rig? I see these references all the time, and have to wonder if the folks making them learned to dive by using long hose and BP/harness in their OW class ... or if they only wish they did after taking DIR-F. That expectation seems to be like asking someone to run before they've learned how to walk.

And finally, while I agree that it's important to learn and practice any number of skills while moving in the water column ... or better yet, maintaining a hover in the water column (which is more difficult) ... do any of the instructors in here require their OW students to do so prior to attempting the skill first while either kneeling on the bottom or holding onto some kind of reference line? Seems to me that doing so is risking a "corking" situation ... most new divers I've worked with would go into immediate task overload if you asked them to do air exchanges in a hover before ever allowing them the opportunity to try it first while not having to concentrate on maintaining neutral buoyancy. This may seem like the right thing to do ... but in our litigious society, I wonder how many instructors are willing to put themselves at risk of a lawsuit because they placed too many demands on a student who ended up with an air embolism.

Humans just aren't programmed to concentrate on more than one thing at a time. One must first practice a single skill to the point where you can do it without a lot of concentration ... then add another skill while doing the first one at the same time. That's why almost all agencies teach fundamental skills the way they do.

And is it just me ... or does it seem that there's a lot of people out there who forget their first underwater experiences ... and expect others to be living up to a higher standard than they did when they first got started?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Diversauras]

I agree with Rick and o2scuba, its a step towards the mid water abilities.

 

[cornfed]

Knavey once bubbled...

Go back to scuba.rec if you want painful.

By "too painful" I'm talking about people that spend more time analogizing and worrying that they might offend someone then the do asking questions or replying.

"I'm sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings,but this is only my opinion so sorry if I come across means... ... but IMHO I think diving is cool! That's just my two cents, sorry if I offended anyone... please don't take it personally..."

There is absolutely NO need for the childish language and $hit slinging that you obviously prefer in the debates that occur.

Thanks for jumping to conclusions. Where did I say I prefer "childish language and $hit slinging"? My point was that there are certain topics, ie PADI bashing, which turn into $hit slinging very quickly. Overall the board is quite tame and friendly. If people start calling each other sheep f*ckers (like they do on rec.scuba) because they disagree with your choice of, say, BC then we'll have a problem. However, the moderators will never let that happen so don't worry if people sling $hit around a few select topics.

Now please explain why you think I prefer childish debate.

Cornfed

 

[MikeFerrara]

Rick Murchison once bubbled...

There is a time in a diver's training when he needs to be able to concentrate on a single task, to master it - and then combine it with others to become "the compleat diver." I agree that we should be training divers to be able to handle emergencies and to perform basic skills while maintaining reasonably good buoyancy control - but - planting them on the bottom is an excellent way to create the building blocks from which to construct that "compleat diver." Rather than "a way to avoid having to teach them to dive" it is an efficient way to get mastery of individual component skills that make up the overall skilled diver.
Rick

I agree that learning individual components before putting them all together is a good plan. I'm also sure there's more than one way to do it. The problem I see is classes that end with students only performing the component parts while planted on the bottom before putting it all together. I get all that done in confined water and don't plant students on the bottom in open water.

 

[Rick Murchison]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


I agree that learning individual components before putting them all together is a good plan. I'm also sure there's more than one way to do it. The problem I see is classes that end with students only performing the component parts while planted on the bottom before putting it all together. I get all that done in confined water and don't plant students on the bottom in open water.

Agreed!
Rick

 

[detroit diver]

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...
......................

And does ANYONE teach OW students in a DIR rig? I see these references all the time, and have to wonder if the folks making them learned to dive by using long hose and BP/harness in their OW class ... or if they only wish they did after taking DIR-F. That expectation seems to be like asking someone to run before they've learned how to walk.................

Yes. I was one of those students (as was my son). And I'm glad I did.

For a new student, it's no big deal to learn on a BP/wings/long hose setup. Especially if you had not learned anything previously. In fact, in some ways, it made my learning a whole lot easier.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


I get all that done in confined water and don't plant students on the bottom in open water.

You're lucky you teach in an environment where that's possible. But consider places where the confined water and open water expose the students to completely different environments.

I think you'll agree that teaching a student something in a pool ... fresh, clear water where the student wears (at most) a 3-mil shortie ... is a lot different than an open water environment where the water is 55 degrees, is salt water, the student has on a 7-mil farmer john, gloves, and hood, and suddenly is wearing 30 lbs more lead than they were wearing in the pool.

The goals of teaching skills while hovering are laudable ... and in fact, are a closer representation of real-world diving. All students should learn and practice in such a manner. How one achieves that goal really depends on conditions, instructor, and student aptitude. It's a mistake to make generalizations about what method is "right". The important thing is the end result. In that respect, I completely agree with you.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MikeFerrara]

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...
And is it just me ... or does it seem that there's a lot of people out there who forget their first underwater experiences ... and expect others to be living up to a higher standard than they did when they first got started?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Actually, I remember my first OW experiences very well. In fact it has a lot to do with the way I teach. The first time I had to replace my mask midwater I nearly spit my lungs out. I them went out and figured out how to do it for real.

Puting the pieces together...the way I do it...

There are skills that need to be introduced up front just so the student doesn't drown like clearing a reg and clearing and recovering a reg. Certainly at this point a student hasn't yet learned to avoid the bottom.

With that said, rather than teaching skills kneeling on the bottom and spending only a few minutes practicing buoyancy control, and later trying to tie them together (which most classes skip all together) I prefer to focus on laying the foundation of buoyancy control, trim and propulsion techniques and add things to that foundation as we progress.

The natural tendancy for a person to go vertical is a hard thing to train out of a person who spends all their waking time vertical through their entire life. Therefore we never kneel in a vertical position. Also my students, never see any of my staff kneel on the bottom. Students do it the way they see it done. It makes it hard to get assistants, though, because most DM's still need to overweight and kneel to perform the OW skills.

Probably 95% of diving is swimming, stopping and turning while remaining neutral. That's what we spend 95% of our training time doing. Many classes just spend the few minutes it takes to get them to swim the required 30 meters off the bottom and the rest of the class is kneeling. That's how they can get all the pool work done in 5 hours. They skip the diving part.

 

[MikeFerrara]

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...


You're lucky you teach in an environment where that's possible. But consider places where the confined water and open water expose the students to completely different environments.

I think you'll agree that teaching a student something in a pool ... fresh, clear water where the student wears (at most) a 3-mil shortie ... is a lot different than an open water environment where the water is 55 degrees, is salt water, the student has on a 7-mil farmer john, gloves, and hood, and suddenly is wearing 30 lbs more lead than they were wearing in the pool.

The goals of teaching skills while hovering are laudable ... and in fact, are a closer representation of real-world diving. All students should learn and practice in such a manner. How one achieves that goal really depends on conditions, instructor, and student aptitude. It's a mistake to make generalizations about what method is "right". The important thing is the end result. In that respect, I completely agree with you.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I agree that there's more than one method to reach any goal. Again the problem I see is that sometimes the goal is far short of actual diving.

I'm not sure where you think we're teaching. We're in the midwest and cold water is the norm. All our students are in 7 mil suits in OW. We don't even own a rental suit other than that.

Our student have a lot more exposure protection and weight on in OW than they do in the pool and there are ways to deal with that.