Can someone explain to me what the h*ll this is about??

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MikeFerrara once bubbled...


Certainly a line can be a good idea and is required for conducting the ESA. However I've seen way too many students bolt or otherwise be unable to control an ascent or descent. IMO, the best way is to prevent it by making sure students are comfortable and competant before going to OW.

How long would that be? a year, two?


Mike, I gotta disagree. As soon as you THINK all of your students are competant prior to the ow dives, that is when you may suddenly be surprised. Although they may seem so, they have very little experience. What was comfortable and appeared smooth in the pool can go right out the window in the event that a student becomes stressed, anxios, or panicked in the OW.

While I agree that the best way to prevent a problem is to be sure students are competant. IMO The best way to control aproblem, should one occur, is to have the means to intervine and control, preferably before a minor problem becomes an incident.

I have met a lot of instructors who feel that a line is not nessessary once they have a few years of experience under their belt. I've seen way too many instructors make THIS mistake, sooner or later--a hard lesson learned.

Although a line is only REQUIRED for CESA, it can be a very useful safety tool for several other skills as well. Hopefully the need to use it does not arise. One could argue that this is overkill (if you never use it). Once you have seen a line used to prevent what may have been a disaster, you respect for having one increases dramatically.



I've seen way too any instructors make this mistake. Sooner or later a hard lesson may be learned.
 
MikeFerrara once bubbled...


Certainly a line can be a good idea and is required for conducting the ESA. However I've seen way too many students bolt or otherwise be unable to control an ascent or descent. IMO, the best way is to prevent it by making sure students are comfortable and competant before going to OW.

Mike, I have heard of this. But, they have NEVER used a line for ESA's in OW training. The owner's son was a former PADI instructor and brought it up.

The theory is exactly what you say. We practice buoyant and swimming ascents in the pool. Only if the student is perfectly comfortable in the water do they pass SCUBA I and get to SCUBA 2.

Enough DiveCon's are kept to keep an eye on the buddy pairs and the primary instructor has no problems (typically) by the time they get to the ESA on dive three. I should say that the students don't have a problem, because they have had personal attention and been worked with in the pool to ensure their buoyancy control is good. If that is good, that seriously reduces the stress of any skills being done, even in the open water.

Hey Mike (and I am not being sarcastic), that sounds like what you have been telling us for a while, right?!
 
o2scuba once bubbled...


How long would that be? a year, two?


Mike, I gotta disagree. As soon as you THINK all of your students are competant prior to the ow dives, that is when you may suddenly be surprised. Although they may seem so, they have very little experience. What was comfortable and appeared smooth in the pool can go right out the window in the event that a student becomes stressed, anxios, or panicked in the OW.

While I agree that the best way to prevent a problem is to be sure students are competant. IMO The best way to control aproblem, should one occur, is to have the means to intervine and control, preferably before a minor problem becomes an incident.

I have met a lot of instructors who feel that a line is not nessessary once they have a few years of experience under their belt. I've seen way too many instructors make THIS mistake, sooner or later--a hard lesson learned.

Although a line is only REQUIRED for CESA, it can be a very useful safety tool for several other skills as well. Hopefully the need to use it does not arise. One could argue that this is overkill (if you never use it). Once you have seen a line used to prevent what may have been a disaster, you respect for having one increases dramatically.



I've seen way too any instructors make this mistake. Sooner or later a hard lesson may be learned.

I guess we're miscommunicating again. I didn't say that it didn't make sense to have a float and line handy. However the agencies have done a great job of putting together a system for taking divers into OW who aren't ready and that line isn't going to be enough to help them.
 
roakey once bubbled...
How many pool sessions before the OW checkout dives?
o2scuba once bubbled...

Usually 3 sometime 4. 4 hour sessions, in some cases a little longer, but pool is only used during our winter season.
I am a PADI Instructor so we don't do "check-out dives". PADI's term is "Open Water Training Dive"
You were so intent on pointing out my horrible mistake of using the wrong term (that must invalidate everything else I have to say in yoiur mind, since you felt it important enough to be explicitly addressed) that you completely missed my point, so I'll spell it out for you:

IF YOU HAVE THE STUDENTS OFF THE BOTTOM BY THE END OF CONFINED WATER, DON'T PUT THEM ON THE BOTTOM OR ON A PLATFROM DURING THE (ahem) OPEN WATER TRAINING DIVES!

roakey once bubbled...
The students should have been weaned off the bottom in the pool; the shallow depths of the pool makes it the MOST difficult place to do those skills, going deeper for the OW checkouts will actually make things easier on them!
o2scuba once bubbled...
Gee wiz. Really?

We are all aware of this fact. That is the point isn't it. We are discussing teaching skills.
"We" are? No, "we" aren't. I was talking to a PADI DM (going on instructor) a couple months ago and mentiond that because of the shallow depths in a pool buoyancy control was more difficult than at depth and his response was "Wow, I never thought of that!"

Now I'm sure he knew all the gas laws, etc. since he grocked it immediately as soon as I said it, but he hadn't internalized all the ramifications of the gas laws and/or didn't have enough experience diving, despite being a DM.

So no, "we" all aren't aware of that fact.
o2scuba once bubbled...
Was there a point to this post? ANy reason you quoted me?
Yes, again, the point is, if you've got your students off the bottom during the pool sessions, KEEP THEM OFF THE BOTTOM/PLATFORM in open water!

Maybe PADI's in worse shape than even I imagined.

Roak

Ps. And if you're not willing to listen to me, at least listen to Mike, who's an instructor that gets it. You're so convinced that your students are complete morons you're teaching them as if they're morons and therefore they're acting like morons.

Mike raised the bar and his students followed.
 
MikeFerrara once bubbled...
I guess we're miscommunicating again. I didn't say that it didn't make sense to have a float and line handy. However the agencies have done a great job of putting together a system for taking divers into OW who aren't ready and that line isn't going to be enough to help them.
In June on my first day of diving in Hawaii I dove a cattle boat.

They had a weighed upline hanging over the side for people to do their safety stops on. I arrived at the upline after most everyone else had, and there was a huge CF of divers vying for that critical 15'-feet-or-you-will-die spot on the line, many of them overly buoyant from their ascent. As I hung 10' or so away from the upline I watched this huge bait-ball of divers slowly overcome the weights at the end of the upline and ascend to the surface en mass, all being dragged up because the line they were holding onto was being dragged up.

Fortunately the operation didn't charge me extra for the entertainment! :)

Roak
 
I didn't elaborate on this.

Mike, I have heard of this. But, they have NEVER used a line for ESA's in OW training. The owner's son was a former PADI instructor and brought it up.

When the owner's son brought it up, his father not so gently told him that it wasn't going to happen. One of the reasons was what I mentioned about making the students comfortable before open waters to begin with.

The primary reason? If the student (by this point we call the student "diver"), actually has to do this they will most likely not have the crutch of that line. If that student gets hurt, it will not be because they were taught with a crutch that won't exist when they actually have to perform an EMERGENCY procedure.

BTW, I use an ascent line for guidance myself. The only time that I have held onto one was in the Straits. The current had us whipping out like flag poles to begin with and getting blown off the boat while performing my safety hangs wasn't my idea of a good time. It is entertaining watching about ten divers trying to hold onto that one foot piece of real estate on the ascent line.
 
roakey once bubbled...

In June on my first day of diving in Hawaii I dove a cattle boat.

They had a weighed upline hanging over the side for people to do their safety stops on. I arrived at the upline after most everyone else had, and there was a huge CF of divers vying for that critical 15'-feet-or-you-will-die spot on the line, many of them overly buoyant from their ascent. As I hung 10' or so away from the upline I watched this huge bait-ball of divers slowly overcome the weights at the end of the upline and ascend to the surface en mass, all being dragged up because the line they were holding onto was being dragged up.

Fortunately the operation didn't charge me extra for the entertainment! :)

Roak

Perhaps a bigger weight on the end of the line would help. LOL
 
diverbrian once bubbled...
I didn't elaborate on this.



When the owner's son brought it up, his father not so gently told him that it wasn't going to happen. One of the reasons was what I mentioned about making the students comfortable before open waters to begin with.

The primary reason? If the student (by this point we call the student "diver"), actually has to do this they will most likely not have the crutch of that line. If that student gets hurt, it will not be because they were taught with a crutch that won't exist when they actually have to perform an EMERGENCY procedure.

BTW, I use an ascent line for guidance myself. The only time that I have held onto one was in the Straits. The current had us whipping out like flag poles to begin with and getting blown off the boat while performing my safety hangs wasn't my idea of a good time. It is entertaining watching about ten divers trying to hold onto that one foot piece of real estate on the ascent line.

The only thing I'd point out is that during the ESA, per PADI standards, the student doesn't touch the line. The line is there to aid the instructor in slowing or stopping the students ascent if the need arises.
 
Standards dictate the use of a line for an ESA... the student never touches it!

While MOST of the skills we practice should be able to be done "off of the bottom" there are a couple that do not. To whit, the D&D of the BC and weight belt. The former will almost invariably happen next to a wreck when there is an entanglement, and the latter is almost a useless skill. Now just dropping the weight belt has merit, but I can't think of a single instance where a D&D of a weight belt would be neccesary.

The final dives (#4 & #5) always has the entire class going through all of their "other" skills at the safety stop. It is there that they are the most vulnerable. I probably underweight my students a tad (something I am in the middle of assessing) and find that they have the most "fun" when they are the lightest and have no frame of reference like the bottom. This will determine the need for dives #6 & #7 (or #8 & #9).
 
Seeing that our agency doesn't require the line, I didn't know how that worked. As an assistant, I have had to follow a couple of students up who had weighting problems. (But wasn't true panic or "bolting", just the students feeling uncomfortable and coming up to check out the problem.) That does make more sense.

I guess that our LDS owner just hasn't felt the need for a line and with his level of experience, I will not argue with him.
 

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