DIR- GUE Is it worth taking Fundamentals this late in the game?

[Germie]

So one of the things I like about GUE is their recommendations when preparing for the next class is to practice the heck out of the previous class. They are truly a progressive agency, rather than having haphazard con ed courses without always clear progression. Having minimum dive requirements and feedback is a huge service to their customers. In the end, divers save time and money with having much higher returns on the time and financial investment put in.

I don't know where to save money. If you don't fail a course, even not if you progress directly, this means you can do the dives on the higher level if you want directly and have more fun. But you ALSO have the option to do the dives on the lower level. There is then a choice.
There are no stats that prove that do dives in between are safer. The other strange thing is that there are also no stats that proof that if you go diving on full cave level with only cave1/intro to cave that then more accidents happen. If there are cave accidents in most cases it are the non-cave trained divers, or it are full cave trained divers. You almost never hear it are the intro to cave/cave1 trained divers. But you hear others judging about experience of divers if something happens, even if they are not there, they give their opinion and sometimes based on nothing.
With this I won't say that it is an good idea to skip the full cave/cave2 level, but it means that if people decide to go diving beyond certification levels that in most cases they have just some brains to think about doing that and about the risks (and of course there are books who can theoretically learn you cave diving, so explain all the theory about navigation in caves and how to do this).

And remember divers are human, so some divers also forget the things learned in a course because it never happens to them and they don't want to practise it again.

Further, there is no cheap technical diving, but it is a big difference if you pay 2000-2500 for the complete course to cave2/full cave, or it is the double price. Not every diver can afford it. Then you can say technical diving is not for you, but also here, there is no proof that the cheaper courses were worser.
I am not the cheapest, but also not the most expensive instructor. And I really understand that people want, but sometimes don't have unlimited money. I also don't have that.
If you don't have the money to go to Mexico or Florida for cave diving and you live in Europe, the cave1 or intro to cave level is really really limited here. So then really the best way is to move on to full cave without dives in between. If you live in Mexico, I can understand why you stay for a while on the intro to cave level as there is a lot to see on the mainline. But, I think the gasrules are broken then too quite easy.

And what do you think then of taking a camera with you on a cave dive, can this be done at cave1/intro to cave level?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I don't know where to save money.

I would have saved money had I taken fundies after OW and then T1. Then go into any tech direction I wanted. All the con ed courses I took were a joke.

 

[crofrog]

I don't know where to save money. If you don't fail a course, even not if you progress directly, this means you can do the dives on the higher level if you want directly and have more fun. But you ALSO have the option to do the dives on the lower level. There is then a choice.

Not everything in diving, or life, needs to be maximized for progression. There's value in savoring the journey, developing skills, and enjoying experiences at your current level. Constantly pushing for "deeper and farther" risks missing the richness of learning and mastery that comes with deliberate practice.

There are no stats that prove that do dives in between are safer. The other strange thing is that there are also no stats that proof that if you go diving on full cave level with only cave1/intro to cave that then more accidents happen. If there are cave accidents in most cases it are the non-cave trained divers, or it are full cave trained divers. You almost never hear it are the intro to cave/cave1 trained divers. But you hear others judging about experience of divers if something happens, even if they are not there, they give their opinion and sometimes based on nothing.

Statistics aren't always necessary to understand safety in diving. Analogous systems in other areas demonstrate this well, such as graduated driver licensing, have clearly reduced accident rates for new drivers by incorporating mandatory practice periods and staged progressions. Similarly, pilot licensing requires accumulating hours between different levels of certification, which has proven effective in enhancing safety. In diving, while direct statistics might be lacking, the principle of gradual exposure to more complex environments seems intuitively safer, reducing the likelihood of accidents through better-prepared divers.

With this I won't say that it is an good idea to skip the full cave/cave2 level, but it means that if people decide to go diving beyond certification levels that in most cases they have just some brains to think about doing that and about the risks (and of course there are books who can theoretically learn you cave diving, so explain all the theory about navigation in caves and how to do this).

And remember divers are human, so some divers also forget the things learned in a course because it never happens to them and they don't want to practise it again.

Further, there is no cheap technical diving, but it is a big difference if you pay 2000-2500 for the complete course to cave2/full cave, or it is the double price. Not every diver can afford it. Then you can say technical diving is not for you, but also here, there is no proof that the cheaper courses were worser.
I am not the cheapest, but also not the most expensive instructor. And I really understand that people want, but sometimes don't have unlimited money. I also don't have that.

It is risky to suggest that people can self-assess their readiness for diving beyond their current certification level. The cost of diving courses, while a significant consideration, should not dictate the safety measures taken in diving. The argument that cheaper courses aren't necessarily worse misses the point that comprehensive training, regardless of cost, is crucial for safety. Moreover, if you can't afford the full spectrum of training, perhaps the safest and most cost-effective approach is to not engage in cave diving. This isn't about gatekeeping the sport but ensuring divers are adequately prepared for the environments they enter, which inherently involves significant financial and personal investment in training. Skipping levels due to financial constraints might save money in the short term but could lead to far greater costs if an accident occurs.

Technical diving is unforgiving of errors; moreover, human factors research consistently shows that people overestimate their capabilities, particularly in high-risk environments. Regular, structured practice spread over time ensures that critical skills are learned, retained, and usable under stress.

And what do you think then of taking a camera with you on a cave dive, can this be done at cave1/intro to cave level?

If shooting some gopro footage is incidental to the dive and not it's purpose and is only done on the way in then it's acceptable.

 

[steinbil]

As someone who got non GUE cave diving training, I could not be happier that I skipped GUE precisely because they require 20-25(?) dives between C1 and C2 (and because you couldn't do it in SM). IMO, the 20-25 dives are such a royal waste of time for anyone who doesn't have caves in their backyard and has to travel to cave dive. I got to the stage cert as fast as I could (within reason obviously), and as a result, pretty much all of my non-training cave dives are 2.5h run time on average. Had I gone the GUE route, I would have had to travel to MX / FL to do baby dives that take more time to set up than to actually dive (figuratively speaking).

Longer dives = more time in the water = more experience (while spending significantly less money).

In the middle of my C1 class now in MX, and the thought of doing a 75min penetration or almost 2500ft right after class (even if the class was twice as long) seems insane to me. I have absolutely no rush to get that far into a cave without gaining a lot of experience.

Also I would argue that – Several shorter dives = more practice, progressive penetration = more experience – rather than focusing on the length of each separate dive.

 

[Germie]

I talk about a real camera (with strobes and all the other ****), not about a gopro. I have seen divers who took this directly after a course in a cave.

Further I don't say that diving without a cave cert is a good idea (no, it isn't), but I can understand why people do it. And this is because we all are human and everybody is different. Maybe not the best idea, but it is human.
if everybody was the same, everybody dove the same Inspiration ccr as the best unit

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I talk about a real camera (with strobes and all the other ****), not about a gopro. I have seen divers who took this directly after a course in a cave.

Further I don't say that diving without a cave cert is a good idea (no, it isn't), but I can understand why people do it. And this is because we all are human and everybody is different. Maybe not the best idea, but it is human.
if everybody was the same, everybody dove the same Inspiration ccr as the best unit

Not everyone takes task loading seriously and not everyone will assume the same level of risk (or agree on what is risky or not). And it doesn't matter how good an instructor is, if a student is uncoachable in some aspects. Some people just don't listen. That doesn't mean they will become a statistic, but their chances of becoming one are greater.

I will say, I wish more people would take Gareth Lock's 2-day Human Factors in Diving seminar (HFiD Level 2 - Face to Face). I had a great teaching moment as Gareth could see I was a bit cocky and had me do the Gemasim exercise first. We made it back but didn't meet the objective. That course opened my eyes on everything diving, and life in general.

HF and fundies should be on everyone's training list.

 

[Germie]

Not everyone takes task loading seriously and not everyone will assume the same level of risk (or agree on what is risky or not). And it doesn't matter how good an instructor is, if a student is uncoachable in some aspects. Some people just don't listen. That doesn't mean they will become a statistic, but their chances of becoming one are greater.

I will say, I wish more people would take Gareth Lock's 2-day Human Factors in Diving seminar (HFiD Level 2 - Face to Face). I had a great teaching moment as Gareth could see I was a bit cocky and had me do the Gemasim exercise first. We made it back but didn't meet the objective. That course opened my eyes on everything diving, and life in general.

HF and fundies should be on everyone's training list.

exactly. And some divers will say yes and amen during a course and then after the course do a big middle finger and do what they want because they have their cert.

But also if a student does exactly what an instructor teaches, if the diver after a course never practise things again, learned things will be lost. Also this increases risks of becoming a statistic, or less serious, the risk of some problems under water.

But I do not agree that and fundies should be on everyones list. I really know enough divers that are succesfull safe technical divers without a fundies or intro to tech cert. But for some divers, yes, it is a good idea.

But I think we also must work on the 'I am the best' attitude which is really strong in the diving community and which is not always friendly. Remember every diver started as a beginner. And also not every diver will end on the same (high) level. But we all love diving and we all want to do it as safe as possible. If we have less of the 'I am the best and I know it all' attitude, discussions will become more open and also this will work towards a safer diving. Respect and accept that not everybody is the same, but listen to each other.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

exactly. And some divers will say yes and amen during a course and then after the course do a big middle finger and do what they want because they have their cert.

And there is nothing that anyone can do about that.

But also if a student does exactly what an instructor teaches, if the diver after a course never practise things again, learned things will be lost. Also this increases risks of becoming a statistic, or less serious, the risk of some problems under water.

I don't think anyone is saying this. As I stated earlier, the recommendations I've seen several times of students going onto T1 is to practice the fundies skills at a tech pass level in preperation.

Most OW skills should be practiced once in a while, but rarely are until they take a rescue course. For cold water divers, mask removal, replacement, and clear is really unpleasant to do. One reason why I always had my students stick their faces in the water before putting on their masks when shore diving.

But I do not agree that and fundies should be on everyones list. I really know enough divers that are succesfull safe technical divers without a fundies or intro to tech cert. But for some divers, yes, it is a good idea.

If you can point me to a course that is consistent, please do. There are great instructors outside the GUE world that will get people to that level. And I recommend those instructors to people living in their area or traveling to.

But I think we also must work on the 'I am the best' attitude which is really strong in the diving community and which is not always friendly.

I don't think the GUE fundies course is the best out there possible. I think there are some instructors who will do a better job. But it is a dаmn good course that provides consistent results. What other agency has that? None that I've taught for. If there is a course that hands down has objective standards and is taught at an equal or higher level, please let me know.

Remember every diver started as a beginner. And also not every diver will end on the same (high) level. But we all love diving and we all want to do it as safe as possible.

Absolutely agree. Most divers will never get into technical diving. Let's remember that fundies is a recreational skills course. Now if you have a solid open water course from RAID or some SDI instructors I know, a purely recreational diver probably won't need

If we have less of the 'I am the best and I know it all' attitude, discussions will become more open and also this will work towards a safer diving. Respect and accept that not everybody is the same, but listen to each other.

Not everyone who advocates for fundies is saying they're the best and know it all. That's how some people react as they are triggered by having mediocrity challenged.

I accept that not everyone is the same, but I don't accept that we should listen to everyone. There are far too many defenders of mediocrity that perpetuate the problem. Far too many think their IDC was all they needed to learn to teach scuba.

 

[Underwater Tourist]

In the middle of my C1 class now in MX, and the thought of doing a 75min penetration or almost 2500ft right after class (even if the class was twice as long) seems insane to me. I have absolutely no rush to get that far into a cave without gaining a lot of experience.

Of course there is the "personal comfort" variable, for example for you GUE progression aligns with what you enjoy and what you feel comfortable with, but there is a lot of divers to whom that might be too slow, or maybe once you complete C1 you realize that you are actually comfortable with more than what you thought originally. But under GUE you will be stuck doing your 20-25 dives, which is mega annoying if you have to travel. So the non-GUE route allows for a more individually tailored curriculum.

For example, it also seemed completely insane to me to do solo cave dives, and for the longest time I thought I would never do a solo cave dive until I log 100-200+ proper 2h+ dives. But in my last trip all the stars aligned and I tried solo for the first time, and I cannot emphasize it enough, that one dive grew me as a cave diver more than all the previous dives combined.

As far as 2500ft penetrations go, its not like you have to swim in a straight line as far from the entrance as you can. There is a humangous amount of side passages within 1000ft in a lot of MX caves, so you can explore those while keeping the exit within your comfort range.

p.s. you can dm me if you will be looking for buddies in MX for your post C1 dives

 

[Lorenzoid]

Of course there is the "personal comfort" variable, for example for you GUE progression aligns with what you enjoy and what you feel comfortable with, but there is a lot of divers to whom that might be too slow, or maybe once you complete C1 you realize that you are actually comfortable with more than what you thought originally. But under GUE you will be stuck doing your 20-25 dives, which is mega annoying if you have to travel. So the non-GUE route allows for a more individually tailored curriculum.

I think someone addressed this above, but is a newbie cave diver really capable of setting their own limits and speed of progression, or knowing what "comfortable" means? When I was 20 years old, I felt "comfortable" pushing all kinds of limits in various endeavors that I would find way too risky today. It's not about the specific number of dives (minimum of 25 or whatever) but rather about getting experience between the two courses. Does anyone disagree that doing some number of dives between courses is beneficial? If a diver is unsure whether they're ready for the next course, they could have an instructor or mentor take a look at where they are.

As for being "stuck doing your 20-25 dives" under GUE, I was never asked to show a logbook when I registered for C2. I think I did around 60 dives in total between C1 and C2, but that's just me--the specific number isn't that important. There are things I wish I had practiced more in preparation for C2, and things that in retrospect I believe in repeating over and over offered diminishing returns and I could have done less of in preparing for C2.

As for "mega annoying," this whole journey from OW diver to cave diver has had its annoyances. I started working on my path to tech level in 2016, was ready to throw my hands up in defeat more than once, but finally achieved the Fundies tech upgrade and took C1 in 2020. Then C2 in 2022. I may on the less-talented end of the bell curve, so it took me a long time to get from OW to C2 relative to more talented divers, but no one should expect the journey to be quick or economical. It can indeed be annoying, even mega annoying with all the travel and expense, but there is light at the end of the tunnel.