Beginners doing GUE fundamentals?

[Tigerpaw]

Good to hear.

When I was in the GUE-F class, they started talking about the "class handout" and all these formulas that I never saw before.

The GUE instructor said it was my responsibility to figure out how to get these handouts BEFORE the class started, and to master the material BEFORE the class, even though I didn't even know the handouts even existed. The instructor never mentioned these handouts during our phone calls before the class.

The GUE instructor was so angry that I didn't have the handouts that he refused to give me the handouts in class. Then he repeatedly asked me questions about the handouts, even though he knew I had no idea what was in the handouts. Then he ridiculed me in class for not knowing the answers.

Yeah. It was a fun time.

From your story and the other negative story, it seems there was a time the DIR/GUE community were arrogant and had an elitist attitude. That is unfortunate and would be a turn off and may have led to an intense discussion "outside"

While it is disheartening to hear these stories, it seems like they have done a complete about face and have changed their attitude and the way they conduct themselves.

From what I've experienced, instructors are now very patient and the community as a whole is very encouraging and helpful. I've gotten so much help and guidance from non instructor GUE divers.

That being said, there's a slight bit of good natured fun and picking on me because my setup isn't completely Halcyon and I still dive with non GUE divers. The worst if it could be called that is that I also ice dive, and one GUE diver stated that cave divers don't have tandem lines. While true, dude was being a prick, I just ignored him.

 

[flymolo]

From your story and the other negative story, it seems there was a time the DIR/GUE community were arrogant and had an elitist attitude. That is unfortunate and would be a turn off and may have led to an intense discussion "outside"

While it is disheartening to hear these stories, it seems like they have done a complete about face and have changed their attitude and the way they conduct themselves.

From what I've experienced, instructors are now very patient and the community as a whole is very encouraging and helpful. I've gotten so much help and guidance from non instructor GUE divers.

That being said, there's a slight bit of good natured fun and picking on me because my setup isn't completely Halcyon and I still dive with non GUE divers. The worst if it could be called that is that I also ice dive, and one GUE diver stated that cave divers don't have tandem lines. While true, dude was being a prick, I just ignored him.

I personally agree with them. I would not go ice diving if it involved tying a line around my equipment

 

[Tigerpaw]

I personally agree with them. I would not go ice diving if it involved tying a line around my equipment

This person viewpoint is that cave divers are elite and he was implying that cave diving was more demanding than ice diving or even penetration wreck diving. He was saying that in a cave it's up to the team to find your way out, whereas with ice diving you can tug on the line and get pulled out. He was saying it in a way that he was looking down on ice divers, it's why I said he was a prick. This person was not an instructor, just an old school GUE/DIR diver who didn't get the memo that times have changed.

Also to your comment about the tender line and your equipment, the tender line does not impede your equipment or functions as a diver. I secure mine to a d-ring that is away from everything and don't have any issues. A tender line is needed for ice diving because finding where you entered in at can be very difficult to do. It's especially true in low viz conditions, that line is your way home and it's a way to communicate with the tender who is on the surface. Public safety divers that retrieve bodies and such use tender lines as it's vital to the job.

 

[DCN]

From what I've experienced, instructors are now very patient and the community as a whole is very encouraging and helpful. I've gotten so much help and guidance from non instructor GUE divers.

We haven't had plenty of time with instructors or divers, but from the little interaction and dives we've had, the (GUE) people we've been in touch with have been very open and friendly, super encouraging and extremely helpful, inviting us along for dives, way before we were even OW certified or thought about signing ourselves up for fundies.

While our own experience is anecdotal, (and we recognise that some may have bad experiences) but to us it doesn't seem that bad experiences are the norm.

 

[dray_gnv]

When I signed up for GUE Fundamentals, I received several emails directly from GUE HQ that alerted me to the course files and to the GUE Academy part of their website. If I hadn't seen that, I'm quite certain I would have contacted GUE to find about out course materials in advance. It seems like a rather basic step for someone interested in taking more control over their own diving. I spent a lot of time before the class reading, thinking, studying, researching deeper. I didn't depend on my instructor to hold my hand though that process. Maybe that's just me.

 

[ChrisMBC]

From your story and the other negative story, it seems there was a time the DIR/GUE community were arrogant and had an elitist attitude. That is unfortunate and would be a turn off and may have led to an intense discussion "outside"

While it is disheartening to hear these stories, it seems like they have done a complete about face and have changed their attitude and the way they conduct themselves.

From what I've experienced, instructors are now very patient and the community as a whole is very encouraging and helpful. I've gotten so much help and guidance from non instructor GUE divers.

That being said, there's a slight bit of good natured fun and picking on me because my setup isn't completely Halcyon and I still dive with non GUE divers. The worst if it could be called that is that I also ice dive, and one GUE diver stated that cave divers don't have tandem lines. While true, dude was being a prick, I just ignored him.

To me, a relative newcomer to GUE (since 2021), it seems fairly clear that GUE did have a problem with the kind of behavior that @Doc Harry describes. Here are a few of the questions (response on a scale of 1-5) from the mandatory QC form that GUE students have to fill out before getting their C-card:

6. Instructor acted in a professional manner.

7. Instructor was respectful and courteous to students.

8. Instructor was fair and impartial with students.

9. Instructor demonstrated a willingness to assist students experiencing difficulties in class.

23. Skills and drills carried out during the course were clearly focused towards fostering student learning, not towards degrading or embarrassing students.

Clearly, GUE HQ is concerned about instructors demonstrating this kind of behaviour, and that suggests to me that it's been a problem in the past. But the good news is, GUE now appears to take end-user feedback and instructor auditing very seriously. Obviously, we don't have any insight into how seriously any complaints are taken by GUE HQ, but the good signs are:

• They force students to fill out the QC form, which means that they're more likely to get a good, balanced sample of student opinions
• They proactively ask questions about areas of issue, rather than just leaving a 'do you have any complaints?' text box
• They have a complete and publicly-viewable process for how complaints are handled and resolved
• Comments are anonymous from the instructor by default (very important in a small community, IMO)

I don't think this process is perfect (I don't think any process is perfect!), but compared to the vast majority of QC/HR/volunteer safety processes that I see in my corporate life and other non-profits, I think it's excellent.

I do wish that GUE HQ would be slightly more transparent about the resolution of the issue in @Doc Harry 's case, and his experience truly does sound terrible. But I don't think that his bad experience, a long time ago -- for which there are now specific protections in place to make sure it doesn't happen again -- should dissuade anyone from taking a GUE course in 2025.

 

[flymolo]

This person viewpoint is that cave divers are elite and he was implying that cave diving was more demanding than ice diving or even penetration wreck diving. He was saying that in a cave it's up to the team to find your way out, whereas with ice diving you can tug on the line and get pulled out. He was saying it in a way that he was looking down on ice divers, it's why I said he was a prick. This person was not an instructor, just an old school GUE/DIR diver who didn't get the memo that times have changed.

Also to your comment about the tender line and your equipment, the tender line does not impede your equipment or functions as a diver. I secure mine to a d-ring that is away from everything and don't have any issues. A tender line is needed for ice diving because finding where you entered in at can be very difficult to do. It's especially true in low viz conditions, that line is your way home and it's a way to communicate with the tender who is on the surface. Public safety divers that retrieve bodies and such use tender lines as it's vital to the job.

don't they tie a rope around the diver to compensate for the fact that ice diving doesn't require actual overhead training?

overhead training teaches you how to make back to the surface via the use of a continuous guideline. i still contend the person who you say is a prick was right..

 

[jadairiii]

To me, a relative newcomer to GUE (since 2021), it seems fairly clear that GUE did have a problem with the kind of behavior that @Doc Harry describes. Here are a few of the questions (response on a scale of 1-5) from the mandatory QC form that GUE students have to fill out before getting their C-card:

6. Instructor acted in a professional manner.

7. Instructor was respectful and courteous to students.

8. Instructor was fair and impartial with students.

9. Instructor demonstrated a willingness to assist students experiencing difficulties in class.

23. Skills and drills carried out during the course were clearly focused towards fostering student learning, not towards degrading or embarrassing students.

Clearly, GUE HQ is concerned about instructors demonstrating this kind of behaviour, and that suggests to me that it's been a problem in the past. But the good news is, GUE now appears to take end-user feedback and instructor auditing very seriously. Obviously, we don't have any insight into how seriously any complaints are taken by GUE HQ, but the good signs are:

• They force students to fill out the QC form, which means that they're more likely to get a good, balanced sample of student opinions
• They proactively ask questions about areas of issue, rather than just leaving a 'do you have any complaints?' text box
• They have a complete and publicly-viewable process for how complaints are handled and resolved
• Comments are anonymous from the instructor by default (very important in a small community, IMO)

I don't think this process is perfect (I don't think any process is perfect!), but compared to the vast majority of QC/HR/volunteer safety processes that I see in my corporate life and other non-profits, I think it's excellent.

I do wish that GUE HQ would be slightly more transparent about the resolution of the issue in @Doc Harry 's case, and his experience truly does sound terrible. But I don't think that his bad experience, a long time ago -- for which there are now specific protections in place to make sure it doesn't happen again -- should dissuade anyone from taking a GUE course in 2025.

This QC by GUE has been standard for quite some time. You should have seen what some tech instructors were like in the early/mid 90's, before GUE!!

 

[AnnikaPersson]

We are beginner divers, certified OW in August last year, and we did our drysuit course in October. We've been diving almost every weekend since, all of it in cold water, with a bpw & long hose config, and we are fairly comfortable with handling the gear and conditions. We've learned a lot from diving as much as possible in a short time, also from picking the brains of very helpful and knowledgeable forum members, but we feel it is time to learn more!

We want to become safer, better divers, and a GUE fundamentals course seems to be a natural progression from where we are at right now. We are already in touch with a local GUE instructor, and we've done a couple of dives together.

We'd like to know:
Has anyone done GUE fundamentals as a beginner? If so, what is your experience? Any regrets, if so, why?
Or have you been diving for a long time, then signed up for fundamentals and regret that you didn't do it earlier on?

enjoy and have fun! .. and don't worry

just reach out if I can help in any way



- Annika

 

[DCN]

enjoy and have fun! .. and don't worry

just reach out if I can help in any way

- Annika

Thank you so much, that is very generous of you!

We approach this course with an idea that we're going to learn a lot. As of today, we have 30 cold water dives in a drysuit since we really started diving in late October last year, and we're still working things out. By the time our course starts, maybe 40-45 in total. We think we're comfortable enough to be able to perform skills at a very basic level (we can send you one of our videos if you want)

We're doing fundamentals with M, so maybe we'll see you in the beginning of May!