DIR- GUE Is it worth taking Fundamentals this late in the game?

[crofrog]

But under GUE you will be stuck doing your 20-25 dives, which is mega annoying if you have to travel.

I have never felt like I was "stuck" doing cave dives, or that C1 dives are mega annoying. I'm ready to see more of the cave now after ~30 C1 dives though.

3-4 cave dives a day are pretty easy to do at the C1 level because you can get 2 dives at least out of a set of doubles. You can then go get lunch and fill up in Flordia or switch tanks in Mexico and do another set of dives somewhere else.

We've spent quite a few days in Flordia, where, in the morning, we went to Peacock and dove Olsen Sink and Peanut on one set of doubles. Then, we went to Extreme Exposure and had lunch. In the afternoon, we hit Ginnie twice. Depending on how good you are running the primary, it was sometimes possible to get farther on the second dive because you could just swim in and not mess around in the flow with the line.

We did 11 C1 dives in Flordia in 4 days and 12 in 3 days in Mexico, and they were all enjoyable dives, we got better at cave diving skills and more comfortable in the cave environment and had fun.

I hardly feel like 8 days of C1 diving is this massive burden if you don't live near caves... Frankly, if you don't live near caves and it's such a burden to travel down to a cave diving destination for 25 dives, maybe it's not for you. I have a hard time seeing how you're going to be able to stay proficient, especially considering you're planning on undertaking more intense dives on these limited trips.

I'm just a baby cave diver, but I've already seen some other divers in the caves who have me scratching my head.

I may on the less-talented end of the bell curve, so it took me a long time to get from OW to C2 relative to more talented divers, but no one should expect the journey to be quick or economical. It

or maybe the standards are objectively higher and that it takes time to develop the skills and comfort needed to meet them.

 

[iliketopetsharks]

If C1 dives are "annoying" why even bother diving caves at all?

 

[Lorenzoid]

If C1 dives are "annoying" why even bother diving caves at all?

He said "if you have to travel" it can be mega annoying. I get it. It's not easy or economical. Then again, it's never felt annoying once I'm in the water. As a C1 diver, it was all new and all pretty amazing. I still feel amazed on every cave dive.

 

[Underwater Tourist]

@Lorenzoid I wanted to reply to each of the points you made, but the post is just getting stupid long and is turning into a novel like @Germie likes to write sometimes. Some topics are a little too difficult to fully type out and argue online, so I will make a total chicken move and not really reply

 

[NothingClever]

This thread is making me count my blessings.

 

[caveandreas]

That is true, but also not true.
I see here in Europe that the cave1/intro to cave limits are broken in less than 5 dives after the course. Or it are the gasrules that are strengthened to 1/3, or it is the deco, do a jump, or they take an extra stage cylinder to get more bottomtime. This is agency independent.
This is why I really advice people to do the full cave part too in conjunction with the intro to cave. Then there are officially 'no limits' anymore, but then you have learned what to do and can make decisions easier. And then you see that divers sometimes have a more carefull approach.

Divers are all human, and no agency can prevent things divers do. Also there is no law or police that can stop you. So if you want to go on the cave path, look further than only the first level course.

I will have to confess to be one of those divers . (well i got 37 dives after the class as i did 3-4 dives a day for a couple of weeks after C1 while still on vacation mx) But i broke the "limits" with using stages and thirds and doing some limited navigation just months after my C1. Not waiting for my C2 class i had booked the next year.

Would I recommend this as a blanket statement on the internet; No absolutely not.

Do I think many people have the capacity to self evaluate what "safety limits" they could push and what they would need instructor feedback on before doing it safely; Yes.

In retrospect do I think it was stupid. No, not really. I think it was a fair assessment at the time. I'm very confident many others can go beyond class limits and still be fairly safe.

I'm also confident a lot also would be totally incapable of assessing their own capabilities (the same people that is surprised when they fail a class, and have no idea why). So I don't think any agency would be very keen on giving any stipulations of how to advance your diving without classes.

I guess GUE in particular have a lot of rule followers, that is very happy with clear set of instructions of what to do or not do. But you also have another category of divers. Those want to understand the rules, not just following rules, and they might want to adapt the rules to fit them based on their understanding of them. (just like your deco, I'm looking at you 20/85 divers!). And those two category of people might have some friction when discussing subjects like this. If you follow the rules you have pretty low possibility to really **** things up, but if you try to understand them and fail you can really get in trouble.

 

[caveandreas]

But under GUE you will be stuck doing your 20-25 dives, which is mega annoying if you have to travel. So the non-GUE route allows for a more individually tailored curriculum.

I dont really understand this, cave1 dives (within its limits) is seldom longer than 90min and often closer to 60min so you can easily do 3-4 a day. So its really just a week of active diving if you try to build experience. And if more than one or two C1 a day is overwhelming the diver might need the experience to doing them over a longer time-span and not rush into the next class.

 

[dray_gnv]

I guess GUE in particular have a lot of rule followers, that is very happy with clear set of instructions of what to do or not do. But you also have another category of divers. Those want to understand the rules, not just following rules, and they might want to adapt the rules to fit them based on their understanding of them. (just like your deco, I'm looking at you 20/85 divers!). And those two category of people might have some friction when discussing subjects like this. If you follow the rules you have pretty low possibility to really **** things up, but if you try to understand them and fail you can really get in trouble.

I'm still early in my GUE path, but so far I haven't found any instructors or other GUE divers who can't clearly explain reasons behind the rules. There is a lot of emphasis on team diving, so shared expectations and plans within a team are fundamental to this approach.

 

[rddvet]

I find it stupid that people can't control themselves and keep within the limits of their cave diving certification. The caves have been here for forever. They will change over time, but they're not going anywhere.
I'm a Florida local so it's slightly different, but I spent over a year at cavern level. It sucked at times, but the more time in the water the more enjoyment I had and the easier the next classes were. It can get very boring looking at peacock's cavern for the 30th time, but if you're actually trying to improve you can find things to do that are enjoyable and beneficial. For years I was opposed to how the CDS did apprentice because it really did push people into breaking standards. I'm glad it's changed.
I find the people who are so amped up to move forward in cave classes are the people who will be out of it 3 years later. They're focused on the end goal, not the journey and most of those people aren't properly learning the cave or slowing down to "smell the roses" and really enjoy the cave environment. They eventually get bored and move onto something new. I know multiple instructors who have refused to continue training people when they found out the broke standards and I agree with the choice. You can fix skills, you can't fix people's mentalities.
But at the end of the day, you're an adult. You're given standards that have been thought about long and hard by people with much more experience than you will ever have with the goal to keep you safe and alive. If you're in the mindset that you're smarter and know better and just can't control your impulses, then I would say I don't think you should be technical diving or cave diving because you have the wrong mindset.
Lastly, zero to hero is not the answer. You truly need to learn the skills, then practice them to the best of your ability to be a good student and teammate when you move onto the next course. Most(not all) zero to hero instructors are not putting out great students because the students aren't working on their skills as they progress. The only caveat to that is there are some students with such exceptional skills and experience going into a zero to hero class that will breeze through and do well. That is not the norm.