If you were to redo the scuba industry how would you do it?

[Eric Sedletzky]

I hesitate to add more to this thread, but what the heck. As a consumer (rather than as a provider) of diving, the thoughts below may be fantasy, but here goes:

1. The basic Open Water certification should have a recommended depth of 100 feet and include training that enables diving with Nitrox. I personally don't think it needs to be any longer or more difficult -- with one exception. I agree that the swim test is pretty minimal. I would add maybe one item: the ability to swim half a pool length under water with no mask, goggles, or fins. I think that would weed out many of those who should really be getting swim lessons before they get a diving certification. I think PADI and the other agencies have made themselves and the dive industry victims of their own success in creating an extreme multi-step certification process that then creates de facto legal standards for what is "safe" that, in turn, creates issues with liability and insurance.
2. The Advanced Open Water certification should have a recommended depth limit of 130 feet and actually teach people things they might use as an "advanced" diver. For example, how to deploy a marker and use a reel, how to sling and switch to a pony, where to carry extra items on their rigs (knives, reals, markers, etc.), and basic gas planning.
3. Advocate that diving gear manufacturers (especially of regulators) make manuals and part specifications available with their products to end the "grand mystery" of regulator service and parts availability.
4. Advocate for laws that make liability waivers more clearly enforceable. If a dive operator makes clear that they are only providing a ride to the dive site, should it be the operator's fault that someone jumps in the water without adequate preparation?
5. Make diving around the country a little more like diving in Florida or the Caribbean by making rentals more available on site so that people don't have to worry so much about unloading, rinsing, or drying gear when they get home. Maybe that's not practical in non-vacation areas, but, as someone in another thread put it, dealing with gear after the dive is a hassle.
6. Be more cautious about advertising diving as a "fun for the whole family activity." It can be -- if the family are good in the water to begin with. However, part of the initial attraction many years ago is that it was cool, and even seen as dangerous -- a little bit of James Bond, if you will. That is long gone, but the truth of the matter is that there are inherent dangers to being underwater and under pressure and the industry should not minimize those.

Long rant over. At the end of the day, the success of the dive "industry" will be driven by the number of people who want to dive.

If I was to restructure how OW is taught this is what I would do.
For families wanting to dive in Cozumel or Hawaii or some other warm tropical location, I wouldn’t change a thing. But, what they include in those programs now wouldn’t get you a full OW cert. It would be an amateur pass to be able to blow bubbles with DM/guide under strict supervision.

For a full OW cert it would include everything they do now except it would enhance and concentrate on neutral buoyancy from the start. It would include some basic freediving before any scuba gear in used, and it would include some basic rescue skills. It would include basic navigation skills , more than what they teach now since going the wrong direction and surfacing in some strange or hazardous location is not much fun. I think nitrox could be pushed to a future class. Basic air is fine down to 60’. Nitrox is also difficult to get in some locations, for example there is nowhere around where I live to get it.
OW should prepare a diver and his/her buddy to plan and conduct a dive on their own and not leave any holes in the training to complete such a dive safely. And this should stand for any location, not just some warm benign location, it should include cold water places too.
The increase in cost would be worth it since divers would be more fully trained. There is already a barrier to entry, I hear people complain about cost as it is. These people would complain if there was any cost and they need to go find a free hobby. The cost of certification shouldn’t drop along with the quality of training just to please the broke cheap skates.
But some people don’t complain and they are prepared to pay for quality training. They see the value of a few extra bucks that you get a lot more. Once you have people in a class room and in the pool they are already there, so adding to and reinforcing core skills and more knowledge is not that much more of a burden. A lot more thoroughness needs to be practiced with OW students IMO, not just doing a tough skill once and done.

I still think having a separate entity test and certify divers is a good idea.
There is to much internal corruption taking place with slipshot training and having the same facility train then certify their own students. Maybe at some time in history it worked when people had more integrity, but I don’t think this is so true anymore.

 

[Rick Brant]

If I was to restructure how OW is taught this is what I would do.
For families wanting to dive in Cozumel or Hawaii or some other warm tropical location, I wouldn’t change a thing. But, what they include in those programs now wouldn’t get you a full OW cert. It would be an amateur pass to be able to blow bubbles with DM/guide under strict supervision.

To me this sounds like Discover Scuba Diving (DSD). Hugely popular in HI, it includes a couple hours of training including some in-water skills, then a tour or two with a maximum ratio of 4-1 per Instructor. It's cheaper and faster than getting certified. Also it is common for a certified diver to join, say with his or her kids who are doing DSD.

For a full OW cert it would include everything they do now except it would enhance and concentrate on neutral buoyancy from the start. It would include some basic freediving before any scuba gear in used, and it would include some basic rescue skills. It would include basic navigation skills , more than what they teach now since going the wrong direction and surfacing in some strange or hazardous location is not much fun. I think nitrox could be pushed to a future class. Basic air is fine down to 60’. Nitrox is also difficult to get in some locations, for example there is nowhere around where I live to get it.

This does not sound that different from the current PADI OW to me. Of course what you get varies by instructor, by type of facility where the teaching occurs, and by student natural skill levels. Some instructors already try to push neutral bouyancy, but in a class it is difficult. I know some divers that are on their 20th dive and still struggle mightily with bouyancy. Simply trying to enhance/concetrate on bouyancy won't by itself make it happen for some divers.

I still think having a separate entity test and certify divers is a good idea.
There is to much internal corruption taking place with slipshot training and having the same facility train then certify their own students. Maybe at some time in history it worked when people had more integrity, but I don’t think this is so true anymore.

A by-product of such a change is that fewer divers will get certified. Imagine that a few of the regulars here are the "test / certify" team. They would probably ensure a higher standard of diver but they would also reject so many divers that few would want to even deal with the process.

 

[Cthippo]

A by-product of such a change is that fewer divers will get certified. Imagine that a few of the regulars here are the "test / certify" team. They would probably ensure a higher standard of diver but they would also reject so many divers that few would want to even deal with the process.

I work in a system like this, except for firefighters. At the end of their training a team of evaluators like myself comes in and puts them through a series of written and practical tests, and if they pass all of them, we send the paperwork off to the state and they are certified as firefighters. That is an international certification that is recognized in most places. Depending on the quality of the instruction, pass rate is about 95% on average , with every candidate passing in most cases. The standards they are evaluated against and the task sheets we will be using the grade them are all on the State Fire Marshall's Office website, and at most academies the students are given a full set of task sheets at the beginning of class. The full test sequence includes Hazardous Materials Awareness and Operations, Firefighter 1, firefighter 2, and live fire and depending on the size of the group takes 2-4 days. I can't tell you a specific cost per candidate because there are a bunch of different variables, but it is probably close to $200-$300.

A similar system for divers would be significantly shorter and cheaper because there are far fewer skills involved.

 

[boulderjohn]

I think I can sum up the consensus of this thread.

1. Teaching scuba is so simple that it requires no training. It can be done by any parent, relative, or someone you meet in the checkout line at the grocery store.
2. Instructors routinely do such a poor job on the complex skills required for scuba that we need to have an agency to oversee their work. This agency would examine videos of instructor performance to make sure that they are teaching skills like mask clearing properly. This organization would have to have the legal authority to do this.
3. Parents, relatives, and people you meet at the grocery store would be exempt from this process because they will be assumed to be doing everything correctly.
4. The organization tasked with verifying that instructors are doing things correctly would also be tasked with ensuring that the students who are passed by those instructors (and the parents, relatives, and grocery line people) meet a high standard of performance before they are certified and allowed to use what they were taught in the open water.
5. Given the number of certifications given each year, the supervising organization would have to be huge and well-funded. Examples of such certifying agencies are all taxpayer-funded governmental agencies, so that is the most likely source of both the legal authority and funding of that agency.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

A by-product of such a change is that fewer divers will get certified. Imagine that a few of the regulars here are the "test / certify" team. They would probably ensure a higher standard of diver but they would also reject so many divers that few would want to even deal with the process.

You mentioned that my proposal wouldn’t be much different from how OW is taught now. There would be a few added items but mostly my proposal would insure thoroughly imprinting the information and skills into the diver so when they actually do a real dive on their own they are proficient.
If you say a separate certificating entity would weed out so many divers, how is that different from how it’s supposed to be now? Are you admitting then that there is corruption in the current system since it seems anybody passes no matter what? There is a reason why students are tested. If they are sliding by without being proficient at the most basic level then everything I’m saying is true. In that case we do need a separate agency certifying divers since the current ones aren’t doing their job. I think it would be opposite. I think if divers were trained properly, which wouldn’t be to far from the way it’s SUPPOSED to be now, then they should have no problem passing the required exams. At least a certification would mean something and operators could rest assured they have competent divers on board.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I think I can sum up the consensus of this thread.

1. Teaching scuba is so simple that it requires no training. It can be done by any parent, relative, or someone you meet in the checkout line at the grocery store.
2. Instructors routinely do such a poor job on the complex skills required for scuba that we need to have an agency to oversee their work. This agency would examine videos of instructor performance to make sure that they are teaching skills like mask clearing properly. This organization would have to have the legal authority to do this.
3. Parents, relatives, and people you meet at the grocery store would be exempt from this process because they will be assumed to be doing everything correctly.
4. The organization tasked with verifying that instructors are doing things correctly would also be tasked with ensuring that the students who are passed by those instructors (and the parents, relatives, and grocery line people) meet a high standard of performance before they are certified and allowed to use what they were taught in the open water.
5. Given the number of certifications given each year, the supervising organization would have to be huge and well-funded. Examples of such certifying agencies are all taxpayer-funded governmental agencies, so that is the most likely source of both the legal authority and funding of that agency.

I don’t think this is a summary of this thread at all. I think this is you being a drama queen.

 

[boulderjohn]

Are you admitting then that there is corruption in the current system since it seems anybody passes no matter what?

And what is your evidence that "anybody passes no matter what?" Is it just a personal prejudice, or do you have hard facts and figures?

I have never personally seen a student pass who did not meet standards.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

And what is your evidence that "anybody passes no matter what?" Is it just a personal prejudice, or do you have hard facts and figures?

I will have to dig it up, but I have a screen capture of a conversation of a dive center owner who said he certifies divers as open water, even though they only meet the scuba diver bar, so that they don't feel bad. Now this does not prove this is a pervasive problem, but when I taught at shops, students that couldn't make the cut in my class were always certified in the next one. They had major issues that needed to be addressed. And when I'd see them in the water afterwards, they still had those issues, so it wasn't an issue of me being a POS instructor (a phrase I learned from you).

I have never personally seen a student pass who did not meet standards.

Let those with eyes open them and see.

 

[boulderjohn]

I forgot to mention above that since certifications are considered valid world wide, it would therefore follow that the organization approving certifications and instructor quality would also have to have international authority. Perhaps it could be a function of the U.N. It could be set up along the lines of the world court.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I forgot to mention above that since certifications are considered valid world wide, it would therefore follow that the organization approving certifications and instructor quality would also have to have international authority. Perhaps it could be a function of the U.N. It could be set up along the lines of the world court.

I like your line of thinking!

All bad instructors should be tried in The Hague!