Insurance and Certification Agencies

[Miyaru]

SCUBA on the other hand has innumerable certifying agencies (PADI, NAUI, SDI, TDI. IANTD, SSI, etc, etc) who establish training standards and manage the certifications centrally.

No they don't.
Training standards are set by the WRSTC and followed by the agencies, with the exception of CMAS.

There is an opportunity for a nationwide or global set of standards. The oxygen safety standards are an area that needs work both for blending stations and things like rebreathers that are designed to use 100% O2. The resistance to a set of national standards presumably is why there are so many different agencies (and so many models of rebreathers). It would do a lot to manage insurance.

The W in WRSTC stands for World. The opportunity for a global set of standards has already been addressed, and they're defined in ISO standards.

The 50k-100k a year that dive shops have to pay for liability insurance.

There's not a single dive center that pays 50k-100k a year for liability insurance on this side of the pond.

 

[EricSm]

OP, I'll try again. Your model for improved dive insurance needs to explain why DAN is effectively not what you are trying to invent. To get your attention, it is possible your suggestion/model is irrelevant and perhaps stupid, until you explain why DAN is not the answer you ae seeking.

I'll talk slower and use a hypothetical.

You open a dive shop to provide scuba gear and dive trips in a location with good diving prospects, lets use Pensacola for the future SS United States wreck. The liability insurance for your operation costs 100,000 per year. DAN insurance covers "General Liability Insurance from DAN RRG protects dive businesses against trip and falls, equipment rental claims, tank-fill injuries and more" but it doesn't cover the dive trip operation. The insurance on the shop from DAN is ~3.5k annually, something that can be absorbed from equipment sales through the year but you don't just sell gear and compete with online retailers.

The market rate for a day of diving on a boat is $100/day per diver (pretty much wherever you go). That $100/diver/day has to cover the cost of your divemaster, boat captain, boat, fuel, shop overhead, taxes and insurance. The insurance cover for the diving operation is 50,000/year or 100,000/ year if you do night dives. You would need many thousands of divers per year to cover the cost of that additional insurance.

That insurance expense results in fewer dive operations making trips and less money available to put into the operation. Key Largo has good coverage for trips, but other dive spots like Corpus Christi/S. Padre has nothing (shops just doing snorkel trips now), other locations in Florida gulf side, etc. A lot of 'a buddy of mine with a boat' operations now because the liability insurance makes commercial operations untenable due to the liability insurance cost. If you have your own boat and dive privately or just dive in a local lake/quarry DAN insurance covers that.

 

[EricSm]

No they don't.
Training standards are set by the WRSTC and followed by the agencies, with the exception of CMAS.

The W in WRSTC stands for World. The opportunity for a global set of standards has already been addressed, and they're defined in ISO standards.

There's not a single dive center that pays 50k-100k a year for liability insurance on this side of the pond.

Horizon Divers in Key Largo pays 50k/year and don't do night dives. It is a very busy operation with thousands of divers per year. They were quoted 100k if they wanted to include night dives.

The only Dive operation in Corpus/ S. Padre is a dude (Felix) in a boat disconnected from any dive shop. The operation doesn't have the thousands of divers needed to support dive operation liability ins. The scuba shops only run snorkel tours and dolphin watching cruises.

Same in Port Aransas, pretty much snorkeling and dolphin cruises.

Shops in Houston (4th largest city in US) are mainly retail outlets that organize trips through travel agencies and don't operate boats/trips themselves, thus they can get DAN insurance to cover their shop and trip arranging since they don't have a DIVE operation.

The Fling runs operations out to the Flower Gardens in the Gulf of America and pay through the nose for dive insurance. There is no competing operation and they don't allow rebreathers.

The dive operation market is pretty thin in contrast with retail scuba stores (that can use available DAN insurance). DAN does provide operation cover I think for lakes or quarries only.

 

[tursiops]

I'll talk slower

If you are trying to be an A$$, this is a good start.

The liability insurance for your operation costs 100,000 per year.

The insurance cover for the diving operation is 50,000/year or 100,000/ year if you do night dives.

Where do these numbers come from?

You are implying that there is a lot of good diving that people want to go to in the Gulf.....most would disagree, I think, which is likely the reason for no dive boats....not the hypothetical cost of insurance.

Suggesting to change a global system because there are no boats convenient to you in South Texas is ludicrous.

 

[EricSm]

To get your attention, it is possible your suggestion/model is irrelevant and perhaps stupid, until you explain why DAN is not the answer you ae seeking.

What is this?
What is this?

 

[Miyaru]

Horizon Divers in Key Largo pays 50k/year and don't do night dives. It is a very busy operation with thousands of divers per year. They were quoted 100k if they wanted to include night dives.

The only Dive operation in Corpus/ S. Padre is a dude (Felix) in a boat disconnected from any dive shop. The operation doesn't have the thousands of divers needed to support dive operation liability ins. The scuba shops only run snorkel tours and dolphin watching cruises.

Same in Port Aransas, pretty much snorkeling and dolphin cruises.

Shops in Houston (4th largest city in US) are mainly retail outlets that organize trips through travel agencies and don't operate boats/trips themselves, thus they can get DAN insurance to cover their shop and trip arranging since they don't have a DIVE operation.

The Fling runs operations out to the Flower Gardens in the Gulf of America and pay through the nose for dive insurance. There is no competing operation and they don't allow rebreathers.

The dive operation market is pretty thin in contrast with retail scuba stores (that can use available DAN insurance). DAN does provide operation cover I think for lakes or quarries only.

Yes. Examples from the same country.
I thought you mentioned a global solution?

I can imagine that those high premiums have to do with the legal system in that country. But the world is larger than that country and other legal systems exist.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

A lot of the insurance ills that you are concerned about might be because there are very few underwriters now that will have anything to do with scuba activities. Scuba diving overall is very small and not worth the hassle for them to deal with it.
Just ask instructors what happened to their insurance rates in the last few years.

 

[sea_ledford]

I think you are conflating a bunch of different things and thinking it is all due to lack of standards and therefore cost of insurance.

There are US and global standards (RSTC, WRSTC and ISO), and most widely accepted agencies meet or exceed those standards. Lack of after certification QC with instructors and dive shops is certainly a problem though.

Scuba IS self regulated, that is why we don't have any laws related to diving, just self enforced community standards (can't get a fill without a cert card, can't dive off a commercial boat without a cert card, etc). None of us want federal or state intervention.

Liability insurance is stupidly expensive, you can thank our "sue anyone and everyone it's not my fault" society for that. It has nothing to do with standards, but might be somewhat related to the lack of QC.

There aren't any dive boats in Texas because you have to go 40 miles offshore to get decent visibility, gas is expensive, divers are cheap, and there isn't much to see except the Flower Gardens and oil rigs. You can thank the Mississippi and geology for that.

 

[Allen-1]

I think you are conflating a bunch of different things and thinking it is all due to lack of standards and therefore cost of insurance.

There are US and global standards (RSTC, WRSTC and ISO), and most widely accepted agencies meet or exceed those standards. Lack of after certification QC with instructors and dive shops is certainly a problem though.

Scuba IS self regulated, that is why we don't have any laws related to diving, just self enforced community standards (can't get a fill without a cert card, can't dive off a commercial boat without a cert card, etc). None of us want federal or state intervention.

Liability insurance is stupidly expensive, you can thank our "sue anyone and everyone it's not my fault" society for that. It has nothing to do with standards, but might be somewhat related to the lack of QC.

There aren't any dive boats in Texas because you have to go 40 miles offshore to get decent visibility, gas is expensive, divers are cheap, and there isn't much to see except the Flower Gardens and oil rigs. You can thank the Mississippi and geology for that.

Re dive boats in texas.

I’m in southern coastal Georgia- and the nearest decent diving is West Palm Beach, FL. That’s about six hours drive.

If I want to dive, I drive. Bitching about it doesn’t change the reality.

 

[LI-er]

Insurance premiums are based on prior claims. Scuba diving is a risky activity and when there are accidents, people get badly injured and even die sometimes. Somebody's gotta pay for that.

This has nothng to do with a bunch of adult men acting like children and shooting rockets in the air and paying low insurance premiums because nobody gets hurt.