Question SCUBA, the self-policing industry

[JMarc]

France has various decrets and arrettes regulating diving, to the extend that a PADI certificate is useless.

In France there are strict laws. In practice only divers with CMAS-compliant certifications are free to dive alone, without supervision.

Recreational air diving French regulations applies to dives organized by an entity (commercial or non-profit). They don't apply if you go diving with a group of friends. There is much noise about the possibility for an informal group of friend to be classified as a de facto entity, as far as I know there are only a few cases prosecuted on that basis and none had this argument considered as valid.

The regulation is formulated in terms of competencies (to which depth can you dive with only peers as buddy, to which depth can you dive with a qualified guide, solo diving is not authorized for anybody when the regulation applies). There is a mapping in the regulation from CMAS certification to those competencies and there are non CMAS affiliated French agencies which deliver certifications in term of those competencies. A diver organizer can do their own mapping for other agencies (although only CMAS or french certification may allow you to dive on air between 40 and 60m). There is something arbitrary there and you'll have more difficulty to get recognition of your certification with a non-profit club in a non touristy area than with a commercial charter in on the Mediterranean coast (all of those I know will sell you a PADI or SSI formation as easily as a French one or a pack with both certifications if you ask and pay for it, obviously they will let you dive with it afterwards) but I've been buddied with people having only PADI or SSI certifications delivered outside of France before I got the certification allowing me to be a guide for those who need it.

Being a guide without being an instructor is reserved to french certifications.

To act as a non profit instructor, you need to have a CMAS or a french instructor certification.

To act as a for profit instructor, you need to have a state delivered certification (I wonder how well that match with EU rules, so maybe you don't really if you are not French and a citizen of an EU country and you qualify to do for profit training in your own country, consult a lawyer specialized in those matter if you really care).

Including Europe.

I'm pretty sure the Netherlands have self-operated air filling stations at popular places for beach diving such as Zealand.

 

[USdiver1]

But that's just it: Exley's Basic Cave Diving: A Blueprint for Survival came as a product of simple self-regulation and not some top-down message from Sacto or Sinai . . .

BOTOH, anything coming from Sheck Exley is, for all practical purposes, coming from Mt. Sinai.

Just Sayin'

 

[BRT]

BOTOH, anything coming from Sheck Exley is, for all practical purposes, coming from Mt. Sinai.

Just Sayin'

Yeah, he still writing books?

 

[BRT]

Not sure where you are diving. I see people getting carded every time I dive in South FL. For some charters I (and everyone) get carded every trip.

Now for fills I agree. I've never been carded and have not seen anyone get carded FOR RECREATIONAL fills. I believe carding for tech fills is pretty much universal. Some shops do card for nitrox fills as well.

I can't remember getting carded for a fill. I once was asked the MOD's for nitrox mixes before they gave me a nitrox fill.

 

[boulderjohn]

I once was asked the MOD's for nitrox mixes before they gave me a nitrox fill.

Another ScubaBoard poster and I have different memories of who first told the story. My memory is it was the person who now goes by @MXGratefulDiver.

He wanted a nitrox fill and when they asked for a card, he showed a trimix diver card. They said nope, he needed to have a nitrox card to get a nitrox fill, and that was not a nitrox card. After a little argument, he asked if they could give him a trimix fill, and they said they could. So he asked for a trimix fill of 32% oxygen and 0% helium. When he did that, the guy apparently came to his senses.

 

[Allen-1]

I'm frustrated with the whole concept of "Dying in the pursuit of what you enjoy is never acceptable". I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't want to live a safe rish free life, nor do I want to engage in safe, risk free activities.

I used to skydive, I ride a motorcycle, I'm a competitive (somewhat) shooter, I dive a bit. An acquaintance said to me "you like to live dangerously". I laughed. No. If I thought I was going to die doing these things, I wouldn't do them. I believe that I'll live. I think, I train, I pay attention. I have fun doing these things.

If someone else packs my chute, I want to know that they're qualified to do so. There are regulations regarding that, and I see them as a "good thing"; I don't want his failure endangering me. I want the pilot running the jump plane to be competent/qualified for the same reasons. Once I leave the plane, it's on me.

I do the mechanical work on my bike, I don't really trust anyone else to do it when an equipment failure in running gear (brakes, wheels, suspension), could easily kill me.

I want the operation filling my tank(s) to be overseen sufficiently that I don't get "bad air", and I want the boat operator and dive master to be sufficiently qualified so that their actions don't kill me or set me up to die. After that - it's my responsibility to stay alive. That means thinking, training, listening to others who know more, gear checking, self-checking - generally paying attention.

On the range, I'm responsible for my actions; I want oversight of other shooters in competitions to make sure that their stupidity/negligence/ignorance doesn't present a danger to me. So I'm good with RO/SO oversight in competition, but not when I'm on the range practicing.

I find that hard to believe.

I am a winter diver in South Florida. I haven't dived with all of the current operators, but I have filled out many a waiver over a couple of decades, and I have pretty much always had to show certification. Now, what is true is that you can get into their system, and they have you on file. Then you don't have to show anything.

Here are two stories from South Florida.

1. There was a new person behind the counter, and I registered for the dive (as usual) under the frequent diver program, meaning my dive was prepaid. The new person behind the counter asked for my certification card. I didn't have it because I was in the system with a frequent diver card. Finally the manager told her I didn't need to show a card.
2. As I was registering for a dive to a deeper (about 100 feet) wreck, another diver was told his OW card was not sufficient for that dive. He had to have at least AOW. He said he was actually an assistant instructor, but he only showed an OW card under the (foolishly mistaken) belief that there is some kind of an advantage to hiding your true status. Unfortunately, their Internet was down, so they couldn't check online. He had to agree to dive with a DM to do the dive.

I had an interesting conversation with a dive instructor about that. He uses his AOW card sometimes because he's found that when he uses his advanced credentials on a boat where he doesn't have a buddy - the DM pairs him up with an inexperienced diver. Which is good for the newbie, but bad for him because it can limit him.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Another ScubaBoard poster and I have different memories of who first told the story. My memory is it was the person who now goes by @MXGratefulDiver.

He wanted a nitrox fill and when they asked for a card, he showed a trimix diver card. They said nope, he needed to have a nitrox card to get a nitrox fill, and that was not a nitrox card. After a little argument, he asked if they could give him a trimix fill, and they said they could. So he asked for a trimix fill of 32% oxygen and 0% helium. When he did that, the guy apparently came to his senses.

... that was me ... Bonaire ... probably 15 years ago ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I had an interesting conversation with a dive instructor about that. He uses his AOW card sometimes because he's found that when he uses his advanced credentials on a boat where he doesn't have a buddy - the DM pairs him up with an inexperienced diver. Which is good for the newbie, but bad for him because it can limit him.

I hear this story a lot ... and there's probably some truth to it. But my first question is ... who's fault is that?

Instructors, of all people, should know that you ALWAYS reserve the right to say no ... don't dive with someone who you don't want to dive with.

I was an active instructor for a dozen years, and a DM for a year and a half before that. I traveled quite a bit during those years, and often solo. I never hesitated to show my pro card. And yes, there were times that a crew member would ask me if I'd mind being buddied up with a newish diver. But that's the thing ... they ask. Sometimes I say yes, sometimes I say no ... depends on the dive. But I always had the option ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

There were lots of people dying in the FL caves in the 60s and 70s until Sheck Exley analyzed the accidents and wrote a little booklet called “A Blueprint for Survival.” That started cave training as we know it. Suddenly the deaths of non-cave trained divers really dropped. One of the big causes of deaths was lack of training/gear. Going into a cave with one light, no backups, and no reels? That’s stupid.

I’ve read that outside of medical situations, pretty much every cave death can be traced back to breaking one of the cave diving rules.

I dunno about that last statement. I was only in cave diving for a few years ... just an itch I needed to scratch ... but I saw some incredibly dumb things, both in Florida and Mexico. I bet pretty much anybody who dives Ginnie Springs regularly knows what I'm talking about. And once, coming out of Car Wash, in Mexico, we ran into a foursome pretty far back into the cave zone. They were all on single AL80's, and only two of the four even had a light. Me and my buddy signaled for them to follow us out, which looked like that's what they were doing anyway. Nobody got hurt that time ... but stupidity like that has a high potential to be fatal in a cave.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TMurrr]

I hear this story a lot ... and there's probably some truth to it. But my first question is ... who's fault is that?

Instructors, of all people, should know that you ALWAYS reserve the right to say no ... don't dive with someone who you don't want to dive with.

I was an active instructor for a dozen years, and a DM for a year and a half before that. I traveled quite a bit during those years, and often solo. I never hesitated to show my pro card. And yes, there were times that a crew member would ask me if I'd mind being buddied up with a newish diver. But that's the thing ... they ask. Sometimes I say yes, sometimes I say no ... depends on the dive. But I always had the option ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Oh man, I was down in the Florida Keys with the gf for my birthday.
Bear in mind, neither of us are "dive pros" - we're more of run of the mill OW/AOW/EANx who dive regularly in South Florida.
The DM asked to put a newbie with us, in a group of 3. I very politely declined since I we already had a pair and it was my birthday, I didn't want to be responsible for someone who I didn't know. Especially being forced into a group-of-three situation with a stranger and my girlfriend. No thanks.
Less than 5 minutes later, the DM asked AGAIN.
I declined again, slightly less politely. The DM didn't back down and continued to argue with me...
Eventually newbie got put with a family of 5-6 (mom/dad/kids) and gf/I could enjoy my birthday dive. Man, it was annoying to have to argue while already in a buddy/buddy pair...

Side note, I did not tip very well that day because of that DM and that experience. Was I justified in shorting the tip due to the persistent and annoying DM? FWIW I would've tipped normally if he had listened to my polite "no" the first time.