Question SCUBA, the self-policing industry

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Last few years I have shore dived only. I am one who favours no regulations. People do a lot of stupid things they are not qualified to attempt. I think to the "red flags" I saw on the beaches of Destin, FL during winter and seeing young kids in the water with parents on the beach. Water that I would be very careful swimming in. Then I think of Jones Beach in L.I., NY where I paid $15 to park after Labour Day and there were beach patrols keeping folks out of the ocean because the lifeguards were done for the season despite it being about 90F. Then I think of back here in Nova Scotia -- pulling off the road, no parking fees, no lifeguards and diving anywhere I so desire-- solo. That's the way to go-- no rules, regulations and fees. People taking responsibility for themselves. Now, when it comes to kids, there must be some rules to protect them from idiot parents. This is especially true for scuba, where I think the young certification programs are in fact way too young (I know, some instructors teach their own kids, etc.). The unregulated scuba industry hopefully will remain that way. Can you imagine what people 100, 200 years ago would think of being told you can't scuba, swim, even PARK here unless you pay?
 
In the medical field, the sort of issue you are struggling with is the conflict between 2 ethical principles, autonomy (free willed adults make their own decisions) and beneficence (doing good to others).
SCUBA Diving is a self-policing industry. I know this may stir the pot a bit, but I would like your honest opinion.....what does this mean to you? Do you agree with it? If you could change anything, what might it be?
Dive shops often won't provide tank fills without proof of certification, or allow access to dive quarries, or take divers out on dive boats diving without same. I'm okay with all that. Waivers often aim for informed consent, which is very important.

Screening medical questionnaires prior to classes and trips often pressure divers to disclose personal confidential health information and often try to force follow up clearance by a health care professional as a condition of providing services. I strongly dislike this, and it is a topic of strong contention in a number of threads on ScubaBoard. People very commonly fill it out, don't disclose, and hand it in so they can go diving without being bothered, some people morally object to that, lots of arguing later, the thread finally dies.

No one has an issue with educating divers about possible health risks of medical conditions and diving, or a recommendation to see a physician or nurse practitioner. Mandating those things regards to adults is another story.
& you can literally enter a deadly cave system and nobody will stop you. Nobody, including other cave divers, will check you.
Not always true. Years ago we had a contentious thread where it was indicated there are cave divers with a willingness to bodily haul obviously unprepared (e.g.: recreationally equipped divers who look unprepared and presumably unqualified) divers out of caves. Another SB member indicated if anything tried that with him, he's use his, IIRC, 'pig sticker' (dive knife) on the assailant in self-defense.

A number of caves are on private property, and owners don't wish to risk lawsuits from letting undercertified people dive there.

To be clear, I don't think anyone who owns a water body with a cave should be held legally liable if someone independently chooses to cave dive there and drowns.
But where/when do we consider someone who may be a danger to themselves?
If it's a minor, oh, yes. For an adult, well, advising in the most blatantly obvious cases. It would take a lot for me to advocate refusing services to someone.

But someone with no tech. diving cert.s trying to pay someone to take him on a cave tour? Someone extremely obese in terrible physical shape aiming for a dive with a lot of fighting current? Someone who just spilled fish blood on himself and wants to do the tiger shark dive anyway?

It's not inconceivable I would advocate staff refusing to provide service, but I'm pretty strongly in favor of autonomy.
If you witnessed truly uninformed (or worse, negligent) behavior by another diver in your vicinity, what is your course of action?
First off, I don't pay much attention to what others are doing most of the time, so I might not notice. Secondly, if I did notice, maybe try to politely say something non-confrontational, hope for the best and get out of Darwin's way.
OR...do you consider allowing an individual to make their own decisions and perform their own risk assessment, to be of high moral standing?
Yes.
the regulators tend to say "welp" and file it under "played stupid games, won stupid prizes".
As it should be.

P.S.: Where I favor some regulation, such as requiring dive certifications, it is because to consider informed decision-making important, you don't know what you don't know, and risks such as breathing pressurized air at changing depths are not something untrained people are expected to know about.
 
That is shocking to hear from South FL.....unless you know someone, or have a big 'PAINTBALL' sticker on your tank, you'd be hard pressed to get a fill down here. I know "cave country" (Central/Northern FL) is a lil more lenient but nothing crazy. Unless you're dealing with the type of people who don't look at hydro stamps...
I get all my tanks filled at the local fire supply place because it’s cheaper and closer. They don’t care who you are or if you’re certified for anything as long as your tanks are in-inspection.
 
The dive flag only indicates that someone from your vessel is underwater, or on the surface. It has *nothing* to do with scuba diving or the related regulations.
Partially. IIRC, the dive flag was initiated by a group of scuba divers in FL as a way to alert other boaters that there were divers in the water. Requirements will probably vary by state, so what I say may be just applicable to Florida.

A dive flag is required when divers are in the water. There are requirements on the size and shape of the flag, and where it must be displayed. The size requirements are different if the flag is displayed from a vessel, or towed by a diver and attached to a float. Since there is a provision for towing from a diver, it's not completely about the vessel. There may not even be a vessel involved.

Once the dive flag is displayed, there are requirements on both the divers and other boats. Divers need to make reasonable efforts to stay within 300 feet of the flag in open water or 100 feet in more confined waters. Boaters (excluding law enforcement or rescue) must reduce to idle speed if coming within 100'/300' of a displayed dive flag.

If I take my boat out into open water, decide I want to cool off, and jump in the water...am I required to have a flag? Let's say I am out in the fishing grounds.
Maybe. If you just jump in to cool off, you don't need a dive flag. If, however, you jump in with a minimum of dive gear. FL Statute defines as a face mask and snorkel or underwater breathing apparatus. So, if you jump in with just goggles, you would not be required to have a dive flag. Mask and snorkel, yes it's required.
What are you doing underwater if you're not diving, free or scuba?
May be splitting hairs a bit, but snorkeling would apply. Yes, quite similar to free diving, but I see snorkeling as more of a surface activity with occasional forays under the water, and primarily shallow depths. Free diving is more about spending a bit more time under, and primarily going a bit deeper.

Scalloping is more in the snorkeling realm. Shallow depths and the snorkelers usually just submerge to grab the scallop.
Wasn’t there some big cave rescue with that Rick Stanton fella and he mentioned he didn’t have a dive cert?
I wonder if he’s allowed to dive in south Florida…
He would absolutely be allowed to dive in south Florida. He could do shore dives or dive from a private boat. He would probably not be able to book a charter, or dive an inland site that charges a fee for diving. He would also probably not be able to get a tank filled. Now, his name might get him a little more consideration, but I still think a charter wouldn't take him unless they got permission from their insurance. It wouldn't be illegal to take him, just might be against insurance rules.
 
I get all my tanks filled at the local fire supply place because it’s cheaper and closer. They don’t care who you are or if you’re certified for anything as long as your tanks are in-inspection.
The regional differences here struck me as a bit funny.

Around here, the local fire departments often get their SCBA tanks filled at local dive shops. But there are multiple dive shops around, so it makes sense that the fire departments probably don't need to have their own compressors.
 
Anyone can walk into a local O'Reilly Auto Parts store and purchase new brake pads for his/her auto. And then he/she can switch out the old brake pads for the new ones. No license, or certification, or permission is required.

Even a small auto weighs more than a ton, which generates a *lot* of (kinetic?) energy even at just 15 mph, say!

Hmmmm. I'm not sure why I think this post is relevant for this scuba thread.

rx7diver
 
First and foremost, I don't know that I've posted this in the correct category --- but it made the most sense (to me) based on the selections.

SCUBA Diving is a self-policing industry. I know this may stir the pot a bit, but I would like your honest opinion.....what does this mean to you? Do you agree with it? If you could change anything, what might it be?

What I mean is this; as SCUBA divers we put ourselves into potentially precarious situations, at will, and we rely on our personal knowledge & our equipment to keep us alive at depth. BUT all of our certification cards (outside of professional certifications req'd for paid work) are merely suggestions. It is *NOT* illegal to SCUBA dive without being certified. It is *NOT* illegal for a shop to sell you gear - or fill your tanks - if you are not certified. If someone takes you out on their boat, and you choose to dive, there are *NO* laws against this. Hell, you can order a set of doubles w/ manifold AND a drysuit AND anything else you might find online, then have it shipped to your door, put everything together based on YouTube videos & you can literally enter a deadly cave system and nobody will stop you. Nobody, including other cave divers, will check you. Essentially it is unregulated. Despite dozens of "regulatory" SCUBA agencies existing. This is unlike any other industry that I am familiar with. (This isn't to say that a specific LDS won't make their own rules & abide by them, but I am speaking from a standpoint of legality and morality.)

I can see both sides of the coin here. I am 110% in favor of minimal regulations, especially when it comes to government. I hold the personal belief that (as long as I am not harming anyone besides myself) -- that MY business is MY business. But where/when do we consider someone who may be a danger to themselves? If you witnessed truly uninformed (or worse, negligent) behavior by another diver in your vicinity, what is your course of action? Everything you can do to keep this person out of the water? Nothing at all? Somewhere in between?

And when it comes to the factor of morals...do you consider preventing a (potentially dangerous) diver from entering the water, to be of high moral standing? OR...do you consider allowing an individual to make their own decisions and perform their own risk assessment, to be of high moral standing?

Discuss.
holy discussion
 
I'm frustrated with the whole concept of "Dying in the pursuit of what you enjoy is never acceptable". I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't want to live a safe rish free life, nor do I want to engage in safe, risk free activities.
 

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