Question SCUBA, the self-policing industry

[rhwestfall]

When the jury awards the moron's family a monetary reward that bankrupts the business, or causes the premiums to skyrocket, or get dropped for coverage, and they go out of business (may their negligence is a reason they shouldn't be conducting business), that impacts other divers..

 

[DivingLane]

The scuba agencies are simply clubs, regardless of any other pretensions that they may possess -- or their propensities to provide vanity patches for jackets. I cannot recall the last time that I was required to show a C-card for an air-fill and that pleases me.

In California, where we are regulated to about the transverse colon, it's still a welcomed relief, that scuba is among the last of activities to receive any real scrutiny of Sacramento.

Let people make their own decisions with regard to personal safety, etc, before that opportunity is no longer an option . . .

I guess my only concern with this is that often, people think their personal decision does not affect others, when it often does. If a careless diver requires emergency assistance, and the responders are injured, it really wasn't their own "personal safety" they considered.

 

[Phteven]

Within the US, it seems similar to skydiving, to a decent extent. The United States Parachute Association is affiliated with the overwhelming majority of dropzones and their (the USPA) guidelines are followed in addition to the relatively small amount of FARs (federal air regulations) that directly address skydiving.

I'm still a fairly new scuba diver, but it seems like the USPA is ~= PADI/SSI/etc, but those are more worldwide-oriented.

Within skydiving, there is clearly a substantial assumption of risk for anyone jumping out of an aircraft, and courts have generally upheld the waivers signed by jumpers, notwithstanding gross negligence by the DZ.

If a solo, licensed (or certified, really, since the government is not involved) jumper goes in because of his own bad decision making (the most common way we die: flying a perfectly good parachute into the ground) and there's no problem with the reserve (which has to be packed by an FAA-certificated rigger), the regulators tend to say "welp" and file it under "played stupid games, won stupid prizes". Maybe it'll lead to the USPA updating guidelines if they start spotting a trend (when action cameras started becoming a thing and people started dying because of distraction or entanglements, the USPA threw out a guideline saying jumpers should have a C license/200 jumps before jumping with a camera).

However, it still causes problems. First responders have to come, resources are spent, etc. Operations generally have to cease for some amount of time to handle the emergency, etc.

On the more severe side: any time there's an incident involving a tandem student, or the aircraft itself, the FAA will come knocking and as I've heard said before: "the dildo of consequences rarely arrives lubed" and we really, really do not want to invite more regulation to an activity that has remained remarkably free of it, all things considered.

 

[Bigbella]

I guess my only concern with this is that often, people think their personal decision does not affect others, when it often does. If a careless diver requires emergency assistance, and the responders are injured, it really wasn't their own "personal safety" they considered.

Everything is a calculated risk -- who knows whether a crosstown bus has your name on it?

I knew a couple of über-trained cave divers, years ago, who spent thousands of hours dedicated to that pursuit who, nonetheless, succumbed to accidents, one fatally, in a cave complex in Spain, over twenty years ago.

No Orwellian regulatory agency, with an office full of pencil necks and reams of licensing paperwork, could have altered that outcome one whit . . .

 

[Marie13]

Everything is a calculated risk -- who knows whether a crosstown bus has your name on it?

I knew a couple of über-trained cave divers over the years, who spent thousands of hours dedicated to that activity who, nonetheless, succumbed to accidents, one fatally, in a cave complex in Spain, some twenty years ago.

No Orwellian regulatory agency, with an office full of pencil necks and reams of licensing paperwork, could have altered that outcome one whit . . .

There were lots of people dying in the FL caves in the 60s and 70s until Sheck Exley analyzed the accidents and wrote a little booklet called “A Blueprint for Survival.” That started cave training as we know it. Suddenly the deaths of non-cave trained divers really dropped. One of the big causes of deaths was lack of training/gear. Going into a cave with one light, no backups, and no reels? That’s stupid.

I’ve read that outside of medical situations, pretty much every cave death can be traced back to breaking one of the cave diving rules.

 

[Bigbella]

There were lots of people dying in the FL caves in the 60s and 70s until Sheck Exley analyzed the accidents and wrote a little booklet called “A Blueprint for Survival.” That started cave training as we know it. Suddenly the deaths of non-cave trained divers really dropped. One of the big causes of deaths was lack of training/gear. Going into a cave with one light, no backups, and no reels? That’s stupid.

I’ve read that outside of medical situations, pretty much every cave death can be traced back to breaking one of the cave diving rules.

But that's just it: Exley's Basic Cave Diving: A Blueprint for Survival came as a product of simple self-regulation and not some top-down message from Sacto or Sinai . . .

 

[Seaweed Doc]

Are you saying that you're aware of international laws prohibiting access to SCUBA?

I think you might find that in some countries rules exist around diving.

Even in the USA, we have rules about hydro testing cylinders before driving down the highway.

But beyond that, there's limited rules. I suspect it's similar to rock climbing or other terrestrial pursuits. You're welcome to go kill yourself by doing something stupid. I suspect we tend to make laws more for the cases where your stupidity kills somebody else.

Tangential to diving: Boat operators have to follow certain regulations, especially if for hire.

If there were "Scuba Police" I expect the first place they'd hit is on the commercial end. E.g., requiring shops to have their air tested periodically and such. Maybe barring filling cylinders for folks who don't show a c-card. That seems the point where somebody else's irresponsibility could cause your death.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

There are plenty of "adventure hobbies" that are treated just like scuba in the US. Skateboarding, kite boarding, rock climbing, mountain biking, road cycling, etc. Some locations have laws & regulations as to where and sometimes how they are conducted, but the hobby itself is not regulated. Why should it be? I don't need the government to protect me from myself. I do not care to live in a nanny state. I take the risks, I bear the responsibilities as to the potential outcomes.

 

[lexvil]

I think of it more as a conspiratorial anti-trust business model.

 

[Sea_Jay]

I think you might find that in some countries rules exist around diving.

Even in the USA, we have rules about hydro testing cylinders before driving down the highway.

But beyond that, there's limited rules. I suspect it's similar to rock climbing or other terrestrial pursuits. You're welcome to go kill yourself by doing something stupid. I suspect we tend to make laws more for the cases where your stupidity kills somebody else.

Tangential to diving: Boat operators have to follow certain regulations, especially if for hire.

If there were "Scuba Police" I expect the first place they'd hit is on the commercial end. E.g., requiring shops to have their air tested periodically and such. Maybe barring filling cylinders for folks who don't show a c-card. That seems the point where somebody else's irresponsibility could cause your death.

“I think you might find that in some countries rules exist around diving.

Even in the USA, we have rules about hydro testing cylinders before driving down the highway.”

Rules vs. laws…the former is expected to be followed. The latter has consequences. Rules exist within the USA and other countries regarding the use of SCUBA. I haven’t found one single law on the books — worldwide, regarding diving. DOT regulates transport of high pressure cylinders in the USA but as someone who lives in the USA and holds a CDL (commercial drivers license) I can tell you from experience that the DOT regulations are largely unenforced UNLESS there is a catastrophic situation. This only applies to the transport of gas cylinders, in my experience. You are FAR MORE LIKELY to be asked for a pre-trip inspection log, or for a driving log, than to be hassled about cylinders on your truck. Nobody is watching this, which is the root of my post.