Can someone explain to me what the h*ll this is about??

[WJL]

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...

....
And does ANYONE teach OW students in a DIR rig? I see these references all the time, and have to wonder if the folks making them learned to dive by using long hose and BP/harness in their OW class ... or if they only wish they did after taking DIR-F. That expectation seems to be like asking someone to run before they've learned how to walk.

Bob, This I can confirm from personal knowledge. My daughter recently completed her OW class in a DIR rig. She learned how to use the long hose and BP/harness from the beginning. It didn't seem to be any running/walking issue - she just learned that that was how diving was done. My observation was that she caught on to diving skills in class at about the same rate as people do in a "standard' class. (Maybe a little faster, she is my daughter after all).

And finally, while I agree that it's important to learn and practice any number of skills while moving in the water column ... or better yet, maintaining a hover in the water column (which is more difficult) ... do any of the instructors in here require their OW students to do so prior to attempting the skill first while either kneeling on the bottom or holding onto some kind of reference line? Seems to me that doing so is risking a "corking" situation ... most new divers I've worked with would go into immediate task overload if you asked them to do air exchanges in a hover before ever allowing them the opportunity to try it first while not having to concentrate on maintaining neutral buoyancy. This may seem like the right thing to do ... but in our litigious society, I wonder how many instructors are willing to put themselves at risk of a lawsuit because they placed too many demands on a student who ended up with an air embolism.

Humans just aren't programmed to concentrate on more than one thing at a time. One must first practice a single skill to the point where you can do it without a lot of concentration ... then add another skill while doing the first one at the same time. That's why almost all agencies teach fundamental skills the way they do.

Similar sentiments are expressed in earlier posts, to the effect that skills such as airsharing should be taught while planted on the bottom or holding a line, because they are too hard to do the first time in mid-water. This is the wrong focus in my opinion. I think the issue is, which skill is the "foundation" or the "building block". In my view, the foundation is buoyancy control. Everything else should build on that. The one basic skill everyone should get FIRST is buoyancy control. Learn that, then build on it with other skills like airsharing or breathing a free flow. If you first learn to control your position in the water, the other things become easier, not harder.

To answer the other question you raised above, yes, my daughter's instructors required her to maintain a hover before they taught her to remove and replace her mask or do an air share. It worked out fine. I agree that good teaching technique requires building on a foundation of one skill before going on to another. The question is which skill is the foundation. My view is that the foundation is buoyancy control.

 

[jepuskar]

Ohh here we go again.....

What was the problem with that post? Is the big smilie face right after it NOT enough to get the point across that I was kidding.

 

[Whirling Girl]

NWGrateful Diver! Nice to hear from you!

WJL once bubbled...
I think the issue is, which skill is the "foundation" or the "building block". In my view, the foundation is buoyancy control. Everything else should build on that. The one basic skill everyone should get FIRST is buoyancy control. Learn that, then build on it with other skills like airsharing or breathing a free flow. If you first learn to control your position in the water, the other things become easier, not harder.

I agree, buoyancy control is the foundation that you build on. And that's how I have seen it taught, very effectively, in open water classes here in Seattle. I agree that going from the pool to the cold murky waters of Puget Sound is hard, but it still works. And I think the students benefit even more in this difficult diving environment when they learn how to not silt up the bottom and how to control their buoyancy really, really well.

I think it's almost easier with new students, because they don't know that it's supposed to be hard. So they just try until they get it.

Margaret

 

[o2scuba]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

" There are skills that need to be introduced up front just so the student doesn't drown like clearing a reg and clearing and recovering a reg. Certainly at this point a student hasn't yet learned to avoid the bottom. "


Agreed again, but is it not equally important to introduce students to skills that will avoid an embolism? A student who has worked on air sharing skills on the bottom is far less likely to fumble the alternate, or remove their primary reg prior to securing the alternate, or fail to locate the deflator, or fail to make buddy contact. Likewise a student who has worked on bouyancy control (separately)without task overload, is less likely to find themselves in a rapid ascent (during air sharing ascent practice) , dragging their buddy by the alternate, or worse ripping it from their mouth.



"With that said, rather than teaching skills kneeling on the bottom and spending only a few minutes practicing buoyancy control, and later trying to tie them together (which most classes skip all together) I prefer to focus on laying the foundation of buoyancy control, trim and propulsion techniques and add things to that foundation as we progress. "


Who said anything about taking only a few minutes on this? Thats an assumption. Bouyancy control is the skill that the most time should be spent on.


"The natural tendancy for a person to go vertical is a hard thing to train out of a person who spends all their waking time vertical through their entire life. Therefore we never kneel in a vertical position. Also my students, never see any of my staff kneel on the bottom. Students do it the way they see it done. It makes it hard to get assistants, though, because most DM's still need to overweight and kneel to perform the OW skills.

Probably 95% of diving is swimming, stopping and turning while remaining neutral. That's what we spend 95% of our training time doing. Many classes just spend the few minutes it takes to get them to swim the required 30 meters off the bottom and the rest of the class is kneeling. That's how they can get all the pool work done in 5 hours. They skip the diving part.

"

It usually takes 5 hours just to get through modules 1 &2 for us. I agree that teaching skills without practical application is far from adiquate. But that's an entirely different issue. It is sad to see those 2 or 3 day courses being taught. If you have the time, why not spend it teaching each point seperately rather than combining skills in order to save time.




I agree with a lot of your points. The one I agree with the most is that there is more than one way of doing things. The key is minimising risk, and providing as much training as needed to insure mastery of each skill.

 

[MikeFerrara]

o2scuba once bubbled...
"

It usually takes 5 hours just to get through modules 1 &2 for us. I agree that teaching skills without practical application is far from adiquate. But that's an entirely different issue. It is sad to see those 2 or 3 day courses being taught. If you have the time, why not spend it teaching each point seperately rather than combining skills in order to save time.

Maybe I'm misreading this. Are you suggesting that I combine skills to save time? If so, that's not the case at all. Although laying a good foundation in buoyancy control and trim ( a side benefit od which is real comfort in the water) everything else does seem to go mach easier and faster.

I agree with a lot of your points. The one I agree with the most is that there is more than one way of doing things. The key is minimising risk, and providing as much training as needed to insure mastery of each skill.

Minimizing risk is a big motivation for me. I was really tought to expect OW dive one to be a cluster. You know one student shooting up while another is dropping down. I thought that was the way it had to be because that's all I ever saw. Once I gave it some thought it seemed silly and I changed the way I do things. OW dive one is now easy and enjoyable.

When students are proficient I think the risk is greatly reduced. The instructor does need to have control and be prepared to step in if the situation becomes dangerous but I don't feel you need to be overweighted and on the bottom to do that. It might be the easiest way but I don't feel it's the best.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

To those who responded to my questions ... thanks for keeping it informative. I'm a recently-certified DM, and will be starting my instructor training shortly. I'd like to approach it with an open mind, and as many different perspectives on teaching methods as possible.

A question for those who said you learned OW in a DIR rig. Since GUE hasn't yet started teaching OW, who teaches this method? SSI perhaps? Or is this a particular shop's approach? And are the DIR rigs "rental" units, or do you require your students (or yourself, if you learned this way) to purchase a DIR setup in advance of the class?

Thanks again ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MikeFerrara]

jepuskar once bubbled...
Ohh I'll be Haigh this Saturday and possibly Sunday.

Hopefully I'll be in a better mood then because I'll purposely silt up the bottom right in front of you to PEE you off...lolol



Look for a guy with a bright yellow video housing...that will be me.

LOL, If you're raising silt how will I tell you apart from all the others? Besides, by the time we get in the water things will already be so silted out that a little more will hardly be noticable.

They should change the name from diving to silting.

 

[sheck33]

i do know that 5th Dimension teaches the SSI open water class the DIR way. The students can rent BP/wing/long hose setup.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


Minimizing risk is a big motivation for me. I was really tought to expect OW dive one to be a cluster. You know one student shooting up while another is dropping down. I thought that was the way it had to be because that's all I ever saw. Once I gave it some thought it seemed silly and I changed the way I do things. OW dive one is now easy and enjoyable.

Our LDS mitigates this risk by having a lot of DM staff available for OW dives. We always have at least one DM per buddy team ... and often one per diver. DM's are expected to hover when demonstrating skills on OW dives. If you can't do it, you have no business calling yourself a "dive master".

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Knavey]

cornfed once bubbled...


By "too painful" I'm talking about people that spend more time analogizing and worrying that they might offend someone then the do asking questions or replying.

"I'm sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings,but this is only my opinion so sorry if I come across means... ... but IMHO I think diving is cool! That's just my two cents, sorry if I offended anyone... please don't take it personally..."



Thanks for jumping to conclusions. Where did I say I prefer "childish language and $hit slinging"? My point was that there are certain topics, ie PADI bashing, which turn into $hit slinging very quickly. Overall the board is quite tame and friendly. If people start calling each other sheep f*ckers (like they do on rec.scuba) because they disagree with your choice of, say, BC then we'll have a problem. However, the moderators will never let that happen so don't worry if people sling $hit around a few select topics.

Now please explain why you think I prefer childish debate.

Cornfed

I am sorry if you think that I jumped to conclusions. You clearly don't want the crap that is occurring over at the other forums brought here, as you have put in this post. I interpreted the post that I referred to as being that you would like the "rules" that we have on this board loosened to make it more like .rec and that is something that I prefer not to see. I have no desire to participate in the debates their that quickly degenerate into harsh words. Constructive critisism is much more effective and pleasent to read. Again, my apologies for misinterpreting what you wrote earlier.