Which agency should I join if I wish to become an Elite Diver?

[Bob DBF]

Instructors adding stuff is a disappointing concept imho. My question is, “why would the instructor adding stuff want to teach an his or her incomplete program?" - and by incomplete I mean one where the instructor feels compelled to add stuff? How does the instructor (or student) know that what the instructor is adding is correct, right, or appropriate?

The OW instructor I had added information on local diving including reading conditions, strategies for dealing with changing conditions and rescue skills. It was basicly teaching the skills necessary to dive the NorCal Mendocino coast. It was having a mentor while in class. In my case, since I had been diving for years without a card, he set down a set of rules and goals for me to make me a better diver before receiving my card. These are a couple of examples, given time I could probably remember more, and be more specific.

His OW divers were responsible for the added material to receive a card. It was a NAUI/PADI class in 1980. From my understanding, when PADI stopped the C-card from being dependant on added material he dropped PADI.

More importantly - Is it ethical for the instructor to add stuff? Where did the instructor get the ‘added stuff’ from? Did the source of the ‘added stuff’ get credit (money) for their intellectual property (IP)? Or did the instructor just 'steal' from another program (or another agency) to add to his or her insufficient program?

I would say he took his own experience and taught his students to avoid mistakes he made and to teach students that it is better to take the time to evaluate conditions and make a decision than start diving and find your skills overwhelmed by the conditions. His goal was to produce a skilled thinking diver.

The 'added stuff' argument is imho just an excuse to allow the "it's the instructor, not the agency" feel good non-competitive all schools are the same fallacy to continue

The addition of material is irrevelent if the student is not held accountable for the knowledge in order to receive his card. In addition, considering the speed one can certify today, I don't know where an instructor would add any skills or information.



Bob

 

[PfcAJ]

if it says only one cutting device "is needed" then certain people of course take it the way that they will NEVER need anything extra. kinda common logic for human beings.

maybe they should correct it a little to make it more clear that SOMETIMES it MAY still be nice to have a backup with you

-- yes I have seen those mini tekna etc knives in diveshop catalog. never actually seen anyone using them here for open water technical diving, I thought they were mainly a cave diver thing

Its most helpful to the readership here if you don't make up fake stuff to try and push an agenda.

 

[TMHeimer]

The OW instructor I had added information on local diving including reading conditions, strategies for dealing with changing conditions and rescue skills. It was basicly teaching the skills necessary to dive the NorCal Mendocino coast. It was having a mentor while in class. In my case, since I had been diving for years without a card, he set down a set of rules and goals for me to make me a better diver before receiving my card. These are a couple of examples, given time I could probably remember more, and be more specific.

His OW divers were responsible for the added material to receive a card. It was a NAUI/PADI class in 1980. From my understanding, when PADI stopped the C-card from being dependant on added material he dropped PADI.



I would say he took his own experience and taught his students to avoid mistakes he made and to teach students that it is better to take the time to evaluate conditions and make a decision than start diving and find your skills overwhelmed by the conditions. His goal was to produce a skilled thinking diver.



The addition of material is irrevelent if the student is not held accountable for the knowledge in order to receive his card. In addition, considering the speed one can certify today, I don't know where an instructor would add any skills or information.



Bob

Agree. Another factor is that with today's quickie courses (e learning or not), there just isn't time to throw in extras. In my first year of diving I discovered a fair bit of stuff that may have been included in the OW course decades ago. That will happen if one dives regularly right off the bat. "Say, why didn't she mention that"? Later I saw the timelines of the OW course. I wound up assisting the instructor who taught me and saw how good she really was.

 

[almostDIR]

Its most helpful to the readership here if you don't make up fake stuff to try and push an agenda.

I don't understand.
Did you quote a wrong post from me, meaning to answer to the other one?

 

[PfcAJ]

I don't understand.
Did you quote a wrong post from me, meaning to answer to the other one?

Nope.

You stated that some "DIR manual" said you can only have 1 cutting device, and as a result some dude got tangled and had a bad time.

The idea of DIR having some prohibition of carrying a 2nd cutting device is false, fake, and made up.

The best you could come up with was "if it says only one cutting device "is needed" then certain people of course take it the way that they will NEVER need anything extra. kinda common logic for human beings."

It DOESN'T say that. No one has ever said that. You can tell because DIR guys have been carrying more than 1 cutting device since forever. You need A cutting device (as opposed to having none), but no one no where ever put some sort of limit on it.

Fake. Made up. False. Misleading.

Pls stop.

If you wanna go REAL far back in time, take a look at George Irvine's Equipment List
Irvine's Equipment List | Global Underwater Explorers
"-KNIFE OR CUTTER - ON THE WAIST LEFT OF CENTER IN A HALCYON HOLDER - NO
RESTRAINTS - MUST BE FREE. YOU CAN ADD A BACKUP KNIFE TO THE GOODMAN HANDLE ON THE LIGHT. ADD SHEARS IN THE POCKET FOR WRECK DIVING"

 

[almostDIR]

No one has ever said that.

I have met couple of DIR divers who have said that to my face so I believe that counts

I also deduce things by reading things from the web, for example from that GUE equipment list linked here earlier. that was what I was referring to with the comment, have never read the Irvine book ( with ongoing developments in scuba equipment I have feared it would contain outdated information and had thus not read it, will maybe check it sometime if I have time )

I am sure there is no DIR manual that forbids having more than one cutting tool with you at all times. but people understand these DIR teachings differently and some will think for example that backup cutting tools are 'normally not necessary' and fail to figure out when it actually WOULD be necessary to have them with you . the less experience the more serious the problem would potentially be I think because the more experienced would know better?


anyway, this is getting pretty entertaining for sure

 

[PfcAJ]

I have met couple of DIR divers who have said that to my face so I believe that counts

I also deduce things by reading things from the web, for example from that GUE equipment list linked here earlier. that was what I was referring to with the comment, have never read the Irvine book ( with ongoing developments in scuba equipment I have feared it would contain outdated information and had thus not read it, will maybe check it sometime if I have time )

I am sure there is no DIR manual that forbids having more than one cutting tool with you at all times. but people understand these DIR teachings differently and some will think for example that backup cutting tools are 'normally not necessary' and fail to figure out when it actually WOULD be necessary to have them with you . the less experience the more serious the problem would potentially be I think because the more experienced would know better?


anyway, this is getting pretty entertaining for sure

There's tons of things in diving that are "normally not necessary". So what? When it IS necessary...do it or take it. Your whole point here revolves (falsely) around the idea that DIR methodology prevented that dude from taking another cutting tool, subsequently leading to him being in a compromised situation.

Baloney.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Irvine's Equipment List | Global Underwater Explorers
"-KNIFE OR CUTTER - ON THE WAIST LEFT OF CENTER IN A HALCYON HOLDER - NO
RESTRAINTS - MUST BE FREE. YOU CAN ADD A BACKUP KNIFE TO THE GOODMAN HANDLE ON THE LIGHT. ADD SHEARS IN THE POCKET FOR WRECK DIVING"

How does one navigate to that page from GUE.com? I’ve only taken fundies and had no idea that page existed.

So the long term GUE divers from when GI3 was active would know about it, but those of us who haven’t been around as long would not. I’ll definitely bookmark that page.

 

[PfcAJ]

How does one navigate to that page from GUE.com? I’ve only taken fundies and had no idea that page existed.

So the long term GUE divers from when GI3 was active would know about it, but those of us who haven’t been around as long would not. I’ll definitely bookmark that page.

There’s a fair amount of archival stuff on gue’s webpage. It’s easily found at Wkpp.org, but I just googled “George Irvine equipment list” to find the gue page version.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

There’s a fair amount of archival stuff on gue’s webpage. It’s easily found at Wkpp.org, but I just googled “George Irvine equipment list” to find the gue page version.

I did the same now so I could find it later, but I never would have thought “I wonder what was GI3’s equipment list” to make me search for it.

The point is, the number of people aware of that list is probably quite small