How do you feel about guaranteed to pass IE programs?

[daniel f aleman]

Well, you're in a good mood. And yes, if one can't pass the PADI IE on the first try...

English is my second language; conjugating English is tough. And you know how my arguments hold up... all backed with facts.

 

[namabiru]

I must apologize, we’re all going at cross purposes here. What I found so amusing was that they were offering a guarantee to pass a program that has such a low bar to begin with. Now if they were guaranteeing an LA County ITC, or a GUE-f that’d be another story.

No worries yo. I just think the biggest thing is understanding the conditions behind the 'guaranteed pass'--and that is reading and asking questions. Which I would initially think is common sense, but unfortunately this isn't the case with some people (this behavior is particularly rampant in the United States, from personal observation). It's amazing, the number of lemmings who just stupidly sign their names to things without reading and understanding FIRST.

Then again, with some organizations, there are people who get really uppity when you 'inconvenience' them by stopping to read the contract through. (for instance, I'll openly say--some offices at the University of Arizona are one such example.) Which may be what you're arguing--the so-called diver factories are perhaps churning out diving instructors who are not at the top of their game for whatever reason, and this image of a 'guaranteed pass' is merely letting more incompetents into the field and tarnishing the reputation of those who *do* learn, and who *are* capable. However, why does the assumption that people who go to the "conveyer-belt instructor schools" aren't as qualified or capable of instructing have to stand? I think what's being disputed is the opening of an outdoor activity industry to the masses, where you can either climb 10 flights of steep stairs to reach the roof of the buiding, or you can take the lift and be there in 20 seconds. So scuba is being viewed as an easy thing which everyone can do at all levels, and it's demeaning to those who *do* value scuba and put years of time in to reach their level. It's understandable--I'd perhaps feel the same way.

In terms of offering a guaranteed pass or funding for another test, I'll speak from an academic point for a minute. Sometimes people are quite bright, and capable of doing what they know, but testing environments can frankly freak some people out. There are some who are just not good at test-taking. So the offer to pay for another test is a good perk not being offered by other places (I've been shopping lately). It's just that perhaps a different wording is more preferred so as to not make a top instructor rating sound like a carpet-cleaning solution ad. However, I don't know how else the perk would be worded.

 

[Ex-Aquanaut]

Wow, this thread grew quickly. I have some specific replies below, but after reading all of this my feeling is there is people are mixing concepts in this thread. One is the idea of the “you’ll pass no matter what, no matter how bad of a student you are” and “you’ll pass or we’ll pay.”
We at Aquanauts are doing the latter. No one can promise/guarantee passage of the course no matter the circumstances. Any shop that does that is lying or is really really bad.
Our interpretation is the latter. We built a good system and if you follow it and work hard we’re certain you’ll pass the IE. If you do fail, however, we’ll pay for you to do another IDC (for more training) and another IE. It’s basically a “money back guarantee” except we don’t refund cash, we pay for another test.
Specifically….

PhilEllis
Well, you have to remember that those programs and the GUARANTEED TO PASS statements are marketing statements. It certainly does not mean that they have some influence that will automatically pass you when you attend their program. What it means is if you don't pass the PADI IE, they will provide additional training or let you repeat the IDC at no charge.

Exactly right Phil. It’s a promotion. What we are saying is you get a second IDC and a second IE paid for you. (You fail the second time, the third one’s on you.) It’s simply a statement by us that we’re very confident in our training system that we’re willing to eat up to $485 a person if they somehow don’t pass the IE.
Full details are here: http://www.divinginstructortraining.com/internships/padi_ie_exam_guarantte.asp
String – We do not increase the price of the training to cover any IE fails. If you had seen the prices before last week and now you’d see they were the same. (In fact, we haven’t raised IDC prices in 4 years.)

GUBA
In Texas, we have standardized tests in our public education systems (I'm an educator). Students must pass these tests to progress in certain grades/courses. I GUARANTEE my students will pass! But there are some caveats. IF a student stays focused and participates, IF he/she completes assignments, studies, and prepares for class, IF they fulfill the requirements of the course and master skills, IF they dedicate honest effort to the exam...they will pass. I guarantee it.

Agree absolutely. Works the same with us.
Trickster – You need to read the tread yet again, me thinks. I said PADI Instructor Examiners, not OUR CDs, are the best in the world. PADI is only going to choose its best people to be the examiners.
ChickDiver – You must have 100 logged dives to participate in a PADI IDC.

Diverdown247
Wouldn't a "guaranteed pass" make you leary about the quality of instruction as well as the instructor?

The “guarantee” is not that you will 100% pass. The guarantee says that if you do not pass, we’ll pay for another one. (Again, the link is above.) We never guarantee passage of the course and, so, yes, I’d be leery of anyone promising I’d pass no matter what. We’re simply saying we’re confident in our system and if you put in the effort, we’re willing to be $485 you will pass.
Namabiru – You and I have chatted already, so just a couple notes: One of our recent grads is here on SB. I’ll try to find his ID and you can PM him. But I can supply any list of references for you to speak with independently. Also, you mention another dive program in your post. I can assure you our pass rate is better

 

[Seastarson]

WOW... I'm so glad I tripped across your post! The Dallas Film festival is showing it tomorrow evening. It's evidently the only place in the States showing it at this time! I can go catch it tomorrow night! Thanks!

Here's the link:
http://filmguide.afidallas.com/tixSYS/2007/filmguide/eventnote.php?notepg=1&EventNumber=1159

 

[Seastarson]

May I add...

I have read over the posts, mostly breezed over them. No offense to anyone, but I didn't see what I believe to be a very important point: The PADI Course Director who conducts the IDC is NOT the Examiner who conducts the IE. THEREFORE.. the Course Director & his affiliated organization can promise anything, however the Instructor Examiner (who comes from a different region for the IE) is the one who passes or fails the candidate, NOT the CD.

At least, that was the standard when I took my IDC/IE.

As for PADI standards to qualify for DM, AI, or Instructor Candidate, they have actually INCREASED to require MORE experience than they used to.

So what's all this fuss about?

Just a thought...

Thoughts become things, Choose the Good Ones...

 

[Geoff_H]

I don't think that any scuba course should be a guarenteed pass. Ever.

It isn't.

 

[Geoff_H]

It's pretty clear that you if you fail the first IDC, you are guarenteed to get more training, and another go, at the DS's expense.

Just like it I buy a radio with a guarantee, it it breaks down after 1 month then then I am guaranteed to get a replacement. Nobody inteprets a radio guarantee as meaning Sony are claiming 100% of their radio's never go wrong.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I am confused! I went to the Aquanauts site and found a company that does not sound anything like what you dive instruction authorities are complaining about. These internships that have the guarantee sound like a pretty good educational experience. If you are already a DM, the program includes 2 months accomodations with unlimited diving. AOW or OW, 4 months accomodations with unlimited diving. Non-diver, 6 months, unlimited diving. Maximum 4 students per class. A person could easily get a lot of experience diving unlimited for 6 months.

This does not seem nearly as wham-bam as the 40 days from OW to IE I experienced in Florida (200 dives in 2 mo). In '06 Aquanaut's produced 36 OWSI's but classes were max 4 students according to the web site. I would venture that there are plenty of good instructors from the major IDC factories, and also from Auqanauts. It is very likely many of the posts border on slander, without ever even contacting any of the graduates or Aquanauts.

Those few bad apples among instructors, from all the major recreational agencies, are one of my biggest sources of income. The resort rototiller's tip heavy when they learn trim and buoyancy control on my intro, refresher and guided dives. The dive industry and PADI are what they are, real world solutions would be refreshing compared to the same old bashing. You get out of it what you put into it!

 

[fisherdvm]

Wow, only $4,700 for a 3 month program, free diving, free accomodation, in a tropical paradise, and get your divemaster cert?? Double it for a dive instructor course? Can get more training for free if you failed your test??

That sounds like a good deal. I read another website where you can train in Venezuela, and they will teach you Spanish the first few weeks while you are getting your DM or instructor qualification.

If you are young, single, and like adventures... I would not pass over these programs. It is almost as cheap as community colleges in the US, but more fun and adventuresome.

 

[Freds@Aquanauts]

Hello to everyone who has already posted on this thread, as AP stated there is a recent student who passed his IE from Aquanauts and thats me...

However I dont want to get involved in any public slanging matches about different agencies and training styles, and how bad the quality of PADI diving instruction is, but if anybody wants to know in depth about life as an aquanaut intern, or the quality of their training and the way they run their IDC's then by all means PM me and I will happily reply!!

Suffice to say I was there last year doing my Divemaster for four months and here doing my DM - OWSI for five months this year, which in itself says alot about aquanauts and what I think about them!

I've read all of the posts on the thread and in the market place section where AP originally posted his announcement, I respect many of the people who replied to his post from what I have read of them before, specifically OP who clearly has years of diving and instruction behind him. However I dont think that you should not instantly dismiss an idea because its new. I am fully aware both of the OP's and Walter's view on the so called instructor factories and the PADI system of education, but this guarantee to pass does not mean their system of training suddenly becomse tarnished because they are confident in their IDC.

Freds