How do you feel about guaranteed to pass IE programs?

[Walter]

PADI doesn't consider that a legitimate question regarding scuba instruction, and has (or HAD) an article included in the IDC Candidates Workbook debunking the "loved ones" criterion for certification. I was sorry to see that when I did my cross-over. I keep it in mind anyway, no matter what agency I certify through.

I wasn't aware of this, but it certainly reenforces other things I know about them. IMO, the "loved ones" criteria is the best concept I've ever encountered in dive instruction.

Chickdiver, as usual, excellent thoughts. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Thalassamania]

Neil, could you provide a short outline of PADI's rationale?

 

[neil]

Neil, could you provide a short outline of PADI's rationale?

It's been a while since I had a copy of the article. I'll try to find it and send it to you.
If anyone has a copy of it from the workbook, could you let us know?


The article was, as I recall, reciting many of the ideas espoused in PADI's "The Law and the Diving Professional", having to do with the perils of not using a standardized course with standardized materials in a standardized way. I'm happy to lend you my copy if you've never seen it.

 

[SteveDiver]

"GUARANTEED TO PASS" is like a weight-loss pill saying "guarantee to loose weight" provided you: workout 7 days a week, run 2 miles a day, take a laxative 3x daily, eat low fat meals etc... There are always stipulations to such a guarantee and specifc conditions that must be followed in order to receive the "guarantee to pass". Would it be a "guarantee to pass" if one fails the test 4 times, does not show up for class etc? surely there are stipulations.

 

[Thalassamania]

It's been a while since I had a copy of the article. I'll try to find it and send it to you.
If anyone has a copy of it from the workbook, could you let us know?


The article was, as I recall, reciting many of the ideas espoused in PADI's "The Law and the Diving Professional", having to do with the perils of not using a standardized course with standardized materials in a standardized way. I'm happy to lend you my copy if you've never seen it.

I’ve read the “standardized” stuff and I agree wholeheartedly if you substitute the word “documented” for "standardized. " The fallacy in PADI’s standardized argument is the idea that somehow they know something about diver training that another community of experts (e.g., my university’s Diving Control Board, the Diving Officers of all the UNOLS institutions, etc.) doesn’t. Especially since any comparisons of collective expertise between either of those groups and PADI would be put PADI on the short end of the stick.

What I was interested in specifically is PADI’s philippic concerning the “teach my loved ones to dive” test that has been the hallmark of NAUI programs from day one.

 

[lazyturtle]

The regularity of PADI bashing threads is getting boring, surely there's a better use of everyones time...

The shop in question does not have any influence as to weather you pass the IE (other than providing you with good instruction). In my IE something like 6-8 (out of 35 or 40, from several different shops) failed, and looking back I still think it was an excellent program. All the ad is saying is that you'll get another go through the class and at the end of that another attempt to take the IE, at their expense. A guaranteed pass may mean that the instructors (or in the case of an IDC course directors) work with you until your skill level is up to par. Is that bad for some reason?
Now if the shop just handed you a card that'd be wrong, but they don't have the power to do that (and hopefully not the desire).
It's like a drivers license exam: you can take the exam as many times as you want. Taking it more times does not ensure you'll pass. In fact this occurs in many fields, law for example. Would you care if it took your lawyer 2 tries to pass the bar?
The IDC is a course that teaches you 'how to teach', PADI standards, and the PADI 'way of doing things', it's not a course that teaches you how to dive. You should already know how to dive if you're getting any professional rating.

 

[namabiru]

The shop in question does not have any influence as to weather you pass the IE (other than providing you with good instruction). In my IE something like 6-8 (out of 35 or 40, from several different shops) failed, and looking back I still think it was an excellent program. All the ad is saying is that you'll get another go through the class and at the end of that another attempt to take the IE, at their expense. A guaranteed pass may mean that the instructors (or in the case of an IDC course directors) work with you until your skill level is up to par. Is that bad for some reason?
Now if the shop just handed you a card that'd be wrong, but they don't have the power to do that (and hopefully not the desire).

That's how I interpreted the ad as well. I also agree with Guba's point, where there are certain caveats to the 'guaranteed passing', where you turn up having studied your homeworks and are ready with questions, you work hard during your diving, you ask questions, you improve your skills, and your instructors are able to identify your weak spots (or you identify them too) and are willing to work with you on those points to shore up your skills. Which is what makes a good teacher in any occupation--.

But other factory-style places have similar results. In researching Mermaids, for instance, they were quite proud of the divers they were churning out, and how their students were all passing the IDC with flying colors. No, they don't offer the 'guaranteed' clause in their advertising, but if all dive operations used the same advertising scheme, what would be the point? The advertisement is just like my boss described a resume recently--it's not the whole Bible, it's just a sample big enough and attractive enough to make people want to talk to you. So then when you show interest, you ask those questions about the guarantee, and what it entails, and you get it in writing so it's documented. A practice any legitimate business will be happy to provide and show validity for.

As this came up with Aquanauts' recent announcement, it would be interesting to talk objectively to someone on here who has been through their training program. We've had a couple from Mermaids on SB.

 

[RiverRat]

The IDC is a course that teaches you 'how to teach', PADI standards, and the PADI 'way of doing things'

Exactly

It's not a course that teaches you how to dive. You should already know how to dive if you're getting any professional rating.

That's the problem. Many Instructors really don't know how to dive. Not well anyways.

 

[daniel f aleman]

lazyturtle has it right. And, critizing PADI, and their instructors, is a waste of time and misplaced sanctimonial statements. If one is dissatisfied with the PADI program, go elsewhere.

 

[Thalassamania]

That's how I interpreted the ad as well. I also agree with Guba's point, where there are certain caveats to the 'guaranteed passing', where you turn up having studied your homeworks and are ready with questions, you work hard during your diving, you ask questions, you improve your skills, and your instructors are able to identify your weak spots (or you identify them too) and are willing to work with you on those points to shore up your skills. Which is what makes a good teacher in any occupation--.
… We've had a couple from Mermaids on SB.

I must apologize, we’re all going at cross purposes here. What I found so amusing was that they were offering a guarantee to pass a program that has such a low bar to begin with. Now if they were guaranteeing an LA County ITC, or a GUE-f that’d be another story.

lazyturtle has it right. And, critizing PADI, and their instructors, is a waste of time and misplaced sanctimonial statements. If one is dissatisfied with the PADI program, go elsewhere.

Dan, come on, lazyturtle’s a nice guy but he’s got his head up his … er … shell. If you’re dissatisfied with the conversation you have, basically, four options, you can:

1. engage it and see how your arguments hold up,
2. whine to the MODs and report it and see if you can get it shut down,
3. or just add those of us whom you find sanctimonious to your ignore list, or
4. link

BTW: Do you actually know what the word “sanctimonial” means? It’s kind of nonsensical in the context that you are using it.

You can call us hyperactive, hydrocephalic, hypoblastic, hypocoristic, hypodermatic or hypodicrotic, hyponastic, hypostatic and hypothetic if you must. We are defiantly hyperbaric and quite possibly hyperbatic. But we're never hpercatalectic, though we're sometimes hyperkinetic. We might answer to hippocratic and a few to hypothetical … but never, never, never to hypocritical, which is an essential ingredient of sanctimoniousness.