Help with gear configuration for Intro to Cave class.

[Braunbehrens]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Yes Paul Congrats. I read the report. Your a good writer. You were wrong about one thing though. It isn't true that after diving with GUE trained divers you'll feel like your solo diving when diving with others. You just haven't dived with the right people.

Mike, unfortunately I have. I won't be making that mistake again. Whether DIR or not, any new person I dive with goes on a shallow check out dive first. No exceptions. In my experience, non-DIR trained divers simply don't have good buddy skills, and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

I'm not saying they are bad people, I enjoy hanging out and all, they just haven't been trained to dive this way. I don't see this as a problem, I just don't want to put myself at risk by diving with them.

 

[Braunbehrens]

O-ring once bubbled...
I'm glad someone pointed out the character of the people involved here. If you still missed it, let me explain in plain English what happened.

nradov was on the lookout

I have to come to nradov's defense. I have dived with him on many occasions, and he is a very nice person. Let me illustrate with a little anecdote.

We were diving off of my boat, and there were 5 of us. 3 of us were diving DIR, with doubles, and the top of this site is at about 80fsw. Another guy, a friend of mine, was diving as non-DIR as you can, and he had a single tank with air in it. I had some stomach problems, so I decided to sit out the dive. So the question arose as to how we should divide the teams.

My non-DIR friend immediately suggested that he dive SOLO, saying that he was quite used to doing so, and that the other 3 should go as one team. This made a lot of sense, since they all had doubles and trimix/nitrox, and would have a much longer bottom time.

Nradov however, really believes that solo diving is dangerous, and even though he didn't know this guy from Adam, he absolutely insisted that he should team up with him.

I was very impressed by this, because it was clear that Nradov was jeopardizing his dive, and possibly his safety so that a complete stranger didn't have to dive alone.

Also, despite what has been said here, I don't remember him ever being rude to anyone.

I hope this sets the record straight.

 

[Genesis]

By definition, if you just read it, it's not really behind the back. Is it?

When you take something out of context, decide not to discuss it where it can be an open debate with the person who made the comment, and instead choose to speak ill where you THINK that the other person might not (or will not) read it, that's "behind the back."

That you get CAUGHT doing it just means that others - perhaps even the person who you were making the comment about - knows you're a sleazeball.

 

[Braunbehrens]

Since a lot of those guys emailed him, it's not really behind the back. However, I think it's better to address the issue here, which is why I did so. Got slammed for it too....

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Karl:bonk:

I don't understand your problem.

Oh, I see. You got roasted on another Board. That must have been annoying.

Was this the thread?


http://www.spearboard.com/showthread.php?threadid=199&highlight=genesis

Or, perhaps, this one.

http://www.killfile.org/dungeon/why/karl.html

I can see where that would get annoying.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...


Mike, unfortunately I have. I won't be making that mistake again. Whether DIR or not, any new person I dive with goes on a shallow check out dive first. No exceptions. In my experience, non-DIR trained divers simply don't have good buddy skills, and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

I'm not saying they are bad people, I enjoy hanging out and all, they just haven't been trained to dive this way. I don't see this as a problem, I just don't want to put myself at risk by diving with them.

Paul,

I certainly can't argue with you about what your experiences have been. For sure there is logic in a check out dive with a new team member. I won't even claim that my most important diving lessons came from any agency or class. Maybe the steriotypes are earned to a large extent. However I have dived with a good number of divers and some were GUE trained in levels ranging from DIRF (one or more times) to cave 2 and tech 2. The dives ranged from shallow quarry dives to trimix staged cave dives. All were great dives. In the case of the cave dive, it was so good we repeated the same dive about a month later. All dives were discussed after and if any of these divers had any problem with our team diving skills or any other skills it never came out. Not that we're perfect of are done learning but I have money (well not much these days) that says you wouldn't feel solo diving with us.

I also dive with some other very accomplished divers that are great in the water and as part of a team who are not GUE trained. GUE doesn't have a monopoly on team diving, hovering, finning technique, trim, proper gas management or any other aspect of good diving. To be honest some (including me) resent the attitude that they do especially when it often comes or is at least most loudly voiced, from the newly DIRFed who just learned to hover.

Yesterday as an example there were Quest divers stating all over the place that sherpa was going to mess those students up in the name of DIR. Well sorry bub but none of you have seen my students or his. And then there is the fact that most doing the talking don't even teach so they have no clue what they are talking about. When they get in the trenches with us and try to make things better instead of crying to George and badmouthing every one, I for one will be glad to listen.

Later

Mike

 

[Braunbehrens]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
I also dive with some other very accomplished divers that are great in the water and as part of a team who are not GUE trained. GUE doesn't have a monopoly on team diving, hovering, finning technique, trim, proper gas management or any other aspect of good diving. To be honest some (including me) resent the attitude that they do especially when it often comes or is at least most loudly voiced, from the newly DIRFed who just learned to hover.

Yesterday as an example there were Quest diver stating all over the place that sherpa was going to mess those students up in the name of DIR. Well sorry bub but none of you have seen my students or his.

Obviously there were good divers before GUE, and not all good divers are GUE trained. However, my experience with GUE has been that their training has been superior even if they've only had DIR-F.

Since you mention hovering, there are countless TDI trimix graduates who hang on the anchor line like grapes on a vine. In a GUE class you simply wouldn't graduate.

I think the main difference between GUE and the other agencies is that you'll fail your GUE class if you aren't ready. In all my PADI TDI etc. classes there were people who were not ready and passed. I know several people who failed their Tech 1 class on the first try.

I think the main concern on Quest was that someone would teach a DIR class without being qualified to do so.

As for DIR-F students saying stuff, please remember that a lot of these were already trimix certified by other agencies, and that DIR-F is NOT like taking a padi advanced open water class. You do actually learn some useful skills. In any case, if someone feels that their DIR F class was an eye opener, what exactly is wrong with that?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...



Since you mention hovering, there are countless TDI trimix graduates who hang on the anchor line like grapes on a vine. In a GUE class you simply wouldn't graduate.

Agreed. These guys wouldn't graduate my OW class.

I think the main difference between GUE and the other agencies is that you'll fail your GUE class if you aren't ready. In all my PADI TDI etc. classes there were people who were not ready and passed. I know several people who failed their Tech 1 class on the first try.

yes it certainly happens way to often. I don't fail any one until they quit but I don't pass them until they're ready and I've tought six month Advanced Nitrox classes. LOL

I think the main concern on Quest was that someone would teach a DIR class without being qualified to do so.

Maybe you were concerne but IMO some of the others...well nevermind.

As for DIR-F students saying stuff, please remember that a lot of these were already trimix certified by other agencies, and that DIR-F is NOT like taking a padi advanced open water class. You do actually learn some useful skills. In any case, if someone feels that their DIR F class was an eye opener, what exactly is wrong with that?

The only problem with it is that where I come from their right to an opinion stops at the end of my nose. BTW, some (maybe not many) AOW classes might suprise you. The one I teach often results in a PADI card but it's my class not PADI's.

 

[wb416]

Northeastwrecks once bubbled...
Karl:bonk:

I don't understand your problem.

Oh, I see. You got roasted on another Board. That must have been annoying.

Was this the thread?


http://www.spearboard.com/showthread.php?threadid=199&highlight=genesis

Or, perhaps, this one.

http://www.killfile.org/dungeon/why/karl.html

I can see where that would get annoying.

Just more examples of why he's on my ignore list.

 

[MrBlue]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...

Mr. Blue, you don't seem to get that this discussion is not about whether DIR is superior or not, it is about someone claiming to teach DIR who isn't qualified to do so.

Let's put this issue to rest now, since it's been settled.

Mr. Blue, I'm sorry, but I don't think that dropping our pants and getting out the ruler is going to settle anything. I've seen people with lots of experience do very dumb things. Diving is a sport where you can get away with a lot and for a long time. This does not make you an expert, nor does it make it safe. It just makes you lucky.

I do get what the discussion is about. Maybe I wasn't direct enough, or maybe you didn't understand what I was trying to point out/say.

So, I'll try to make it clear and as brief as I can.

I'm fed up with the whole DIR/GUE bashing (both on the DIR/GUE part on on the anti-DIR/GUE part). nine times out of ten when an argument erupts it is the '90 day wonders' of the DIR movement that jump in and fight the fight. by '90 day wonders' I mean those new to DIR or those who have just taken a fundy's class and are hell-bent on converting the world.

The problem is these folks don't have the knowledge or experience to be fighting the 'good fight' and are just parroting what they think they know. The unfortunate part of that is that they are easy targets to pick on by the anti-DIR crowd. But, on the 'net it's sometimes tough to determine if the 'pro DIR' person is indeed someone with experience or simply a 'sockpuppet' (i.e. lemming) for the 'cause'.

That is why folks ask 'to measure up' as you put it. It's that they want to know how much stock to put into what you are saying. Especially when you are acting as an 'expert' as to what is DIR and what isn't. Is that too much to ask? I personally could care less if you hadn't taken a GUE course, or if you are T3 and C3 certified.....I just like to gauge the person's experience when it comes to listening and hopefully learning from their posts.

We both know there are people out there who say they are DIR and have no clue what DIR is. And, more insidious than that are the people who have read the books and have never put any of the techniques into use in the water....yet they come off on the 'net as 'experts'.

DIR is a constant changing thing, I'm watch these boards and subscribe to the quest list so that I can better learn from like minded divers who are actually doing the dives. That leaves me with having to seperate the wheat from the chaff on the boards so I know which posters' to read and which to ignore. But that is off topic for this post.

As for this specific thread and your posts, I saw you 'pop up' and bash someone, then immediately go to quest to announce that you were in a 'fight' and have called them out on it, which seemed like a way to redeem yourself and show that you were a good follower. I hadn't seen you being active on this board or contributing anything in the past. On Quest I see what appears to be alot of A** kissing from you to the 'sockpuppet' gods. Seeing this behaviour I was curious as to if you were the real deal with the experience to behave the way you did and get away with it, or if you were on of the legions of sockpuppets. That is why I was curious as to your level of trainng within GUE and whether you are worth listening to.