Help with gear configuration for Intro to Cave class.

[Braunbehrens]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


I don't want to make this about him but I keep hearing about what he has contributed to diving. Nobody has ever told me what the what is though. What has he contributed to diving?

LOL

DIR for one.

Guys, I need to do some stuff besides read posts in this thread, I'll check back in later or maybe tomorrow.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...


If indeed you teach under these umbrella's, and if you indeed manage to work around these problems and teach your students such basics as clearing the mask mid water and so on, then I commend you for it. I know it must be quite difficult to do so.

With all due respect, PADI requirements don't mean that you can't teach a quality course.

PADI sets the minimum standards. We are free to go beyond. Its that simple.

Teaching skills while hovering, advocating Hogarthian gear configurations and driving home safe diving and buddy skills is all allowed under PADI.

Even if you haven't made the effort to become a DM, AI or instructor, it might not hurt to check out the manuals instead of relying upon third-hand hearsay to form your opinions.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...


If indeed you teach under these umbrella's, and if you indeed manage to work around these problems and teach your students such basics as clearing the mask mid water and so on, then I commend you for it. I know it must be quite difficult to do so.

The only real hard part is finding out that that's how it should be done. Once you know what to teach there isn't really much in the standards preventing you from doing it.

When you have some time to kill search for some of my training related posts. I've spent a lot of time sharing ideas with other instructors. I think there is a few less divers walking on the bottom because of our efforts. If these guys really want to help dive training they need to help show instructors what they should be teaching instead of embarass them into being ashamed to admit they are a PADI (or whatever) instructor. They're just background noise drawing attention away from the issues. Hell if they know so damn much and have such strong opinions about dive training they should be instructors or DM's. You know the old saying? Put up or shut up.

I can point out things that yet need to be changed about my own course. There are however many road blocks and the LEAST of WHICH is the agency. I'd have to say the biggest is the business model in general and it's the equipment manufacturers running that show. The next time you see some one with a scubapro or Aqualung product you just ask them to tell you what's wrong with the dive industry.

I read JJ's view of the industry. He seems to have let the manufacturers off really light. Ask him what he thinks scubapros most recent contributions are. But he does some business with scubapro doesn't he.

Hey, have any idea how much scubapro stuff you have to move in a year to be a dealer? You know who buys it? New divers. The only way to keep that stuff in the store is to move truckloads of new students through. Do you think PADI presures me to move more students thrrough? They don't, not ever. Do you know who does? The manufacturer.

Anyone who has one word to say about the agencies and not an equal word to say about the manufacturers is a liar and a hypocrite or just plain stupid.

The products of these fast cheap classes become an instructors and what do you have? An instructor who doesn't know the difference. ok, the agency then handles the standards and quality control in such a way that their instructors and shops can stay in business and what do you have? An instructor who doesn't know and an agency that aint going to tell him. That is if they even know.

GUE isn't a solution it's just splitting the vote.

Andrew has the answer though I garantee it. I'm the only Halcyon dealer in the state and he sells more Halcyon gear here than I do. You know why? Because he is teaching all the classes. His business is the same as any dive shop. Most push OW to sell gear. He pushes DIRF and there is a fortune in it.

It's the same song with a different tune. Show the newbies cave diver skills and sell em new toys to replace the old ones. Man I wish I had thought of it.

And them if you can get a few nuts to run wild on the net all day pushing the stuff and intimidating people for free. Well there is dive training according to Mike


Sorry about the ranting. It all just seems so obvious to me and so few get it. I guess you have to be in it and not just talk about it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...


LOL

DIR for one.

Guys, I need to do some stuff besides read posts in this thread, I'll check back in later or maybe tomorrow.

I'm surprised you didn't just say go check out

WKPP

Like Nick always does. LOL

 

[Spectre]

I split off the question Mike started about caves where DIR might not work....

Find that one Over Here

Let me know if you want a different thread title...

 

[Genesis]

GI has nothing at all to do with GUE. He is not a founder. He did however come up with DIR, and as such it's his baby, and he gets to say what is and what isn't DIR.

No he doesn't.

Oh, he may think he does, but, from the very people who claim to define DIR is the statement that DIR is not an agency, it is not a person, it is not an organization.

Now either the people who originally made these claims are all lying, and it was all merchandising (in which case they are delusional - or worse, perpetrating a fraud upon the diving public) or nobody can "define" DIR.

Thus, the screeching about people teaching others to "dive DIR" has no foundation - because you simply can't teach someone to "dive DIR", as its far more than a means and mode of diving!

Can you "be DIR" with a BMI outside the normal range? No.
Can you "be DIR" without excellent cardiovascular fitness? No.
Can you "be DIR" and smoke? Not according to many.

Note that nowhere in any of this was an agency - or a person - mentioned. The conclusion is that you can't "teach" DIR, because its not something you can teach, at least in the main. Oh sure, gear configuration and buddy skills can be taught (and learned!), but not the rest.

So in reality, the entire "DIR" thing is just a way for people to bash each other over the head and to give George a target for screaming, hollering, cussing, and alluding that people are farm animals.

Now to the extent that GUE has "adopted" this philosophy, and allows George to do this without "disowning" him publically, while on the other hand both saying that there is no such thing as a "Pope" of DIR, and at the same time nearly crowning "King George", they have indeed "adopted" him as their spokesman.

As a DIRECT consequence of this, plenty of people believe that this is what "DIR" means. A mealy-mouthed foul-tempered state of mind in which calling names - a sign of low intelligence or a few too many Type II DCI hits - is part and parcel of the system.

JJ - as the "adopters of DIR" for his hardware company - has ultimately ended up with THIS view in a lot of corners of the diving community. He could change that. He has chosen not to. He has, therefore, ratified it and adopted it as HIS.

Mike, you're right about GUE not having a solution - but rather just splitting the baby. You're also right about where the problem lays. But where you're wrong is in not seeing the rest of it.

JJ likes the price-controlled, restrictive environment he supports and in fact has helped to create with his "FTP" policy.

Why? Because he thinks it serves him. Not the state of diving in general. HIM. Get it? He's a businessperson. Its simple to figure out the motives.

Unfortunately, without attacking ALL of the problem it will not go away. Manufacturers only have this stranglehold because you, as dive shop owners, allow it. Organize a revolt and it goes away. Why? Because they need you more than you need them.

There are alternatives.

So what will it be Mike? Will it be an open business model in which the cost-shifting can't work any more (and thus it will "go away" due to simple market factors) or will it be kvetching?

 

[Braunbehrens]

Northeastwrecks once bubbled...
PADI sets the minimum standards. We are free to go beyond. Its that simple.

Teaching skills while hovering, advocating Hogarthian gear configurations and driving home safe diving and buddy skills is all allowed under PADI.

Even if you haven't made the effort to become a DM, AI or instructor, it might not hurt to check out the manuals instead of relying upon third-hand hearsay to form your opinions.

I am not interested in the liability of any teaching credential, it is not a question of "effort", and I resent the implication. My info is not third hand, it is what PADI instructors have told me they can and can't do.

If you ask me PADI should REQUIRE some of these skills, and stop watering down the instruction. The way it's done now compared to when I was taught is even worse, and it was bad when I was certified.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...


I am not interested in the liability of any teaching credential, it is not a question of "effort", and I resent the implication. My info is not third hand, it is what PADI instructors have told me they can and can't do.

If you ask me PADI should REQUIRE some of these skills, and stop watering down the instruction. The way it's done now compared to when I was taught is even worse, and it was bad when I was certified.

Then don't teach.

Regardless, it is a question of effort. I didn't suggest that you get certified as I'm not really convinced that you could handle the students. I suggested that you check the manuals for yourself instead of relying upon other people's statements.

You're right. What your posting is second hand, not third hand. My bad. Regardless, its still based upon unnamed sources, the credibility of which I have more than ample reason to question.

You have no personal knowledge of PADI teaching standards. Admit it and move on.

For what its worth, it sounds like your instructor buddies could use some time in an update seminar. However, you've conveniently omitted the specifics of their criticism, so we can't tell how badly they've screwed up.

If you feel so strongly about it that you must type in CAPS, then by all means, become an instructor, progress to Course Director and see what you can do about making PADI REQUIRE those things.

You're repeating a tired line. I've taken DIR-F. They have a nice program, but its nothing special and nothing that I haven't heard in other courses. It was packaged quite nicely and was presented in interesting manner, which is more than I can say for other courses.

I like what I hear, but I turn off the sound when it progresses to mindless zealotry.

The fact remains that you can teach a course that teaches to a high standard of buddy skills, diving philosophy and skills while meeting each and every one of PADI's requirements. You can teach a Hogarthian configuration if you so desire. So sayeth our Course Director.

 

[Braunbehrens]

Northeastwrecks once bubbled...


Then don't teach.

Regardless, it is a question of effort. I didn't suggest that you get certified as I'm not really convinced that you could handle the students. I suggested that you check the manuals for yourself instead of relying upon other people's statements.

You're right. What your posting is second hand, not third hand. My bad. Regardless, its still based upon unnamed sources, the credibility of which I have more than ample reason to question.

You have no personal knowledge of PADI teaching standards. Admit it and move on.

For what its worth, it sounds like your instructor buddies could use some time in an update seminar. However, you've conveniently omitted the specifics of their criticism, so we can't tell how badly they've screwed up.

If you feel so strongly about it that you must type in CAPS, then by all means, become an instructor, progress to Course Director and see what you can do about making PADI REQUIRE those things.

You're repeating a tired line. I've taken DIR-F. They have a nice program, but its nothing special and nothing that I haven't heard in other courses. It was packaged quite nicely and was presented in interesting manner, which is more than I can say for other courses.

I like what I hear, but I turn off the sound when it progresses to mindless zealotry.

The fact remains that you can teach a course that teaches to a high standard of buddy skills, diving philosophy and skills while meeting each and every one of PADI's requirements. You can teach a Hogarthian configuration if you so desire. So sayeth our Course Director.

You really are trying to pick a fight. Sorry, find someone else to fight with. I've said my piece.

 

[Divesherpa]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...


I am not interested in the liability of any teaching credential, it is not a question of "effort", and I resent the implication. My info is not third hand, it is what PADI instructors have told me they can and can't do.

If you ask me PADI should REQUIRE some of these skills, and stop watering down the instruction. The way it's done now compared to when I was taught is even worse, and it was bad when I was certified.

That's the beauty of being an instructor, you can get waivers.
Of course, you would only know this if you were an instructor. It takes an annual renewal plus the ability to write an acceptable report as to why they are not necessary in diving. I have six waivers for OW classes and mandatory snorkels is one of the requirements that are waived. I am forced to teach a snorkel lesson, but that's cool as they are very handy while sailing around in the Caribbean.

Jamie