Can someone explain to me what the h*ll this is about??

[Allen42]

WJL once bubbled...


So, you will let us complain if we use circumlocutions and indirect criticisms, but we can't complain if we're too direct or confrontational?

You object to the style, but the substance is okay?

What point are you trying to make?

My example is much more specific and direct than a "Look at this marketing picture... this class and its agency suck!" Yeah, I've repeatedly said that I agree with most of the substance.

My point is the difference between constructive and destructive criticism. Between an accepting place of learning and a close-minded place of preaching. Between a friendly, welcoming atmosphere and a harsh, critical one. It is believeing that this board should and could be a place that divers would want to ask open, honest questions and learn from the answers without fearing ridicule and derision.

I'm pulling out of this particular thread because I've accompllished one of my goals. I may start an independant thread, but I want to have a discussion with the proper people first.

 

[detroit diver]

Allen42 once bubbled...


My example is much more specific and direct than a "Look at this marketing picture... this class and its agency suck!" .......

It got your attention, didn't it?

I should work for an ad agency

 

[MikeFerrara]

Allen42 once bubbled...


I may start an independant thread, but I want to have a discussion with the proper people first.

We're proper people! Well, sort of

 

[DSJ]

After reading this board for some time I would be slow to criticize the attitude taken by the folks critical of the quality of training or advertising. Some folks like MikeF have tried vailantly to improve the quality of training by talking to the agencies and individual instructors. They've earned the right to ***** a bit. And if not here, then where? Still, the level of "abuse" I see is extremely low compared to any other online forum I've seen.

To address the question "Does this help at all?" I would have to answer in the affirmative. I'm not planning on Tec diving, but for me the "endless carping" on poor bouyancy control alerted me to a glaring lack in my own training. I went to the LDS to take an advanced class in the subject. Unfortunately while they addressed the proper amount of weight issue, they left out placement (trim) completely. If it were not for the numerous threads on the subject I might have thought I then had it all. Nope, I found I did not. And to top it off, one day with Mike at the quarry taught me that it really WAS easy to teach. A subsequent query to the previous class instructor revealed his lack of concern. He told me that horizontal trim and frog kicks were for cave divers and I didn't need to know about it. So if it were not for the folks here I still wouldn't know any better.

I can understand the "Hey, look at this stupid ad" post given the number of times folks have banged their heads against agencies and dealt with silt outs at their local dive sites caused by OW classes. I watched one such class with Mike and I couldn't tell the instructor from the students as they hung kicking vertical by the school bus at Gilboa.

I do believe that an ad should exemplify what you are attempting to achieve after passing the class. To me the ad says, "Come take our class and you will learn to kneel on the bottom when demonstrating your skills." Anyone in the market for a Tec class should be reading it that way. If not I'm afraid I'd have to agree with those who contend that the general level of knowlege has dropped so low that most people don't even know what they don't know. We can debate the level of harm it does to the recreational diver, but when you introduce decompression?

David

 

[Laser]

DSJ once bubbled...
seen.

.

I can understand the "Hey, look at this stupid ad" post given the number of times folks have banged their heads against agencies and dealt with silt outs at their local dive sites caused by OW classes. I watched one such class with Mike and I couldn't tell the instructor from the students as they hung kicking vertical by the school bus at Gilboa.

I do believe that an ad should exemplify what you are attempting to achieve after passing the class. To me the ad says, "Come take our class and you will learn to kneel on the bottom when demonstrating your skills." Anyone in the market for a Tec class should be reading it that way. If not I'm afraid I'd have to agree with those who contend that the general level of knowlege has dropped so low that most people don't even know what they don't know. We can debate the level of harm it does to the recreational diver, but when you introduce decompression?

David

I'm impressed if Mike's OW class was off the bottom. I don't doubt it based on how vehement he has been on this issue.
If Mike can do it why aren't others? It's too hard? Can't keep track of the students? I believe I heard MHK say he would make a game out of the confined water dives and say that you should never touch the bottom, making a game out of it. They would be bouncing all over place but the thought of touching the bottom was planted early.
If you want further education after OW look to the appropriate places. Someone who chooses PADI rec tec has not done there homework.
Padi gets you air fills.

 

[jepuskar]

Will someone please let Walter know that PADI is getting bashed..I'm sure he doesn't want to miss out on this.

ut:

 

[JeffG]

jepuskar once bubbled...
Will someone please let Walter know that PADI is getting bashed..I'm sure he doesn't want to miss out on this.

ut:

Been there...done that...he posted on page 2

 

[sheck33]

as Walter already said, PADI, what do you expect.......
As for contacting them, waste of time, i have tried.
PADI has no interest in improving quality, all they want is quantity.


BTW had a good dive tonight with GearHead at Alki, big octo at the logs near Olive's old den. Cool.

 

[Jonathan]

I don't think you will get many 100 dive OWSI wonders doing Tec Rec because they can't afford to shell out the cash for all the equipment they will have to buy.

The only Tec Rec instructors I have heard of or met have well over 100 dives and are usually an instructor in at least one of the other "tec" agencies.

Anyone actually met one of these 112 (min requirements + course dives) dive tech instructors?

To be honest I don't think it is of much concern.

Jonathan

 

[PhotoTJ]

Allen42 once bubbled...
snip here and there.

"Quit yer b**chin, and DO something about it."

I'm not a tech diver, and don't play one on TV.

Do you expect to meet the gals in the resort ads when you arrive as well? Do you actually believe certain brand products make you sexier? Do you reply to your spam?

rotflmao!

I've noticed that the vast majority of folks who are doing the bi***ing are East coast/midwest/tech/dir divers. (Massive generalization!) Not just in this thread, but just the general bi***ers. And what I hear most complaints about are siltouts/buoyancy issues. I dive in the Pacific, occasionally on cattle boats, and even with a lot of classes on the boats, I have yet to see silt be a problem.

Geez, I'm tired, quit whining and get out of the quarries.