When do RB's change

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

DepthCharge

Contributor
Messages
361
Reaction score
37
Location
upstate NY & Lake Worth Fl.
# of dives
500 - 999
I have a question that I’d like to pose to the group…………When you start modifying a particular rebreather, when is it no longer the unit it started out as :06:
The best example right now is the Inspiration. If you take a 2 year old unit and add all the available (aftermarket) mods: Howell ADV, Howell or another OC/DSV, HH electronics, 4th cell holder, neoprene, and/or back mounted counterlungs…………when is it no longer an Inspiration? And if it’s still an Inspiration, why? :eyebrow:
This is not the only unit………different scrubbers for Azimuth & Drager (ExtendAire), electronic(s) packages for the KISS ETC……
I’d like to get the opinion of as many as possible
.
 
...on who you ask. The manufacturer would probably say at the first unauthorized modification, therby voiding their warrantee and limiting their liability.

OTOH if I put custom wheels on my Honda, it's still a Honda. If I put a Chevy engine in it, it starts becoming less Honda.

Different people will pick different points. Matter of perspective, and preference.
 
3dent:
...on who you ask. The manufacturer would probably say at the first unauthorized modification, therby voiding their warrantee and limiting their liability.

OTOH if I put custom wheels on my Honda, it's still a Honda. If I put a Chevy engine in it, it starts becoming less Honda.

Different people will pick different points. Matter of perspective, and preference.
Interesting points...........and this brings up something else.........Why would you need additional training to dive similar RB's :06: If you really look at it a rebreather is;
a scrubber
counterlung(s) single or dbl
tanks
regulators
O2 sensors
a way to add both dil & O2
ALL CC REBREATHERS have these, just like a car has an engine, wheels, transmission, gas tank etc.
If a person takes their road test on a Ford, they are not limited to a Ford to drive. One would think that it would be similar for RB's. All that one would need would be a breif explaination of the different layouyt of the particular unit...........much like you get when you buy a new car.
And just like vehicles, if you switch types car to say tractor trailer you do need additional training. Just like CCR to SCR would.
 
I asked this very question to the folks at KISS, I want to possibly add electronics to the KISS I built.

As soon as you make the first modification, the manufacturer says it is no longer a XXXXX but it is now a Mike RB.

I also asked the IANTD this very question and the response was interesting. When I make the modifications (KISS Electronics), I need to be recertified in order for my c-card to be valid for the modified RB unit.

Just my experinces so far.

I hate to do the training to move from SCR to CCR and tri-mix and then have to redo the training again if I add 1800.00 bucks of electronics to it.
 
DepthCharge:
Interesting points...........and this brings up something else.........Why would you need additional training to dive similar RB's :06: If you really look at it a rebreather is;
a scrubber
counterlung(s) single or dbl
tanks
regulators
O2 sensors
a way to add both dil & O2
ALL CC REBREATHERS have these, just like a car has an engine, wheels, transmission, gas tank etc.
If a person takes their road test on a Ford, they are not limited to a Ford to drive. One would think that it would be similar for RB's. All that one would need would be a breif explaination of the different layouyt of the particular unit...........much like you get when you buy a new car.
And just like vehicles, if you switch types car to say tractor trailer you do need additional training. Just like CCR to SCR would.


There is no simple answer, it really depends. Diving similiar units needs little additional training but there are differences. let me pose one for you..

Take a MK15 diver and send him to dive an inspiration, there are huge differences.. First you have to untrain the diver the gas flow direction is totally opposite, so manual gas additions can be extremely dangerous, just think if you are descending and you think you are adding diluent but you are really adding oxygen!

Another major difference is the counterlung placement and volume, the way the breathing loop works on the mk15 there is no buoyancy change from the loop at depth, on the inpiration its HUGE.. The diver must completely relearn buoyancy control..

Now take a meg to inspiration, the gas flow is opposite so a few dives should be done under supervision to prevent problems as above, the counterlungs are simpiliar although the imnspirations has a larger bag volume there is a greather buoyancy shift so a bit additional practice is needed (definately not as much as from a mk 15 diver)

Inspiration to Meg
Opposit gas flow so a bit of supervision is requiresd, a smaller bag volume on the meg so buoyancy shifts are neglidable..

There are other issues in how flushes have to be performed and how units have to be assembled and programmed.. The diver doesn;t need the training a "new" CCR diver needs but still needs training none the less..

I will also point an incident that happend sometime ago and was posted on this board (without naming names) a diver bought a certain mk15 (dont remember the flavor), the instructor was much more experienced on another mk15 model, the instructor missed a problem assembling the canister and the student had co2 issues.

Points like this show that training and experience is necessary.
 
Diver Mike:
I asked this very question to the folks at KISS, I want to possibly add electronics to the KISS I built.

As soon as you make the first modification, the manufacturer says it is no longer a XXXXX but it is now a Mike RB.

I also asked the IANTD this very question and the response was interesting. When I make the modifications (KISS Electronics), I need to be recertified in order for my c-card to be valid for the modified RB unit.

Just my experinces so far.

I hate to do the training to move from SCR to CCR and tri-mix and then have to redo the training again if I add 1800.00 bucks of electronics to it.
You gotta love it!!!!!! So each time a mod is made you have to be recertified. Makes one wonder who is being served here.
 
padiscubapro:
There is no simple answer, it really depends. Diving similiar units needs little additional training but there are differences. let me pose one for you..

Take a MK15 diver and send him to dive an inspiration, there are huge differences.. First you have to untrain the diver the gas flow direction is totally opposite, so manual gas additions can be extremely dangerous, just think if you are descending and you think you are adding diluent but you are really adding oxygen!

Another major difference is the counterlung placement and volume, the way the breathing loop works on the mk15 there is no buoyancy change from the loop at depth, on the inpiration its HUGE.. The diver must completely relearn buoyancy control..

Now take a meg to inspiration, the gas flow is opposite so a few dives should be done under supervision to prevent problems as above, the counterlungs are simpiliar although the imnspirations has a larger bag volume there is a greather buoyancy shift so a bit additional practice is needed (definately not as much as from a mk 15 diver)

Inspiration to Meg
Opposit gas flow so a bit of supervision is requiresd, a smaller bag volume on the meg so buoyancy shifts are neglidable..

There are other issues in how flushes have to be performed and how units have to be assembled and programmed.. The diver doesn;t need the training a "new" CCR diver needs but still needs considerable training..

I will also point an incident that happend sometime ago and was posted on this board (without naming names) a diver bought a certain mk15 (dont remember the flavor), the instructor was much more experienced on another mk15 model, the instructor missed a problem assembling the canister and the student had co2 issues.

Points like this show that training and experience is necessary.
I agree that going from a Inspiration to a Mk series would be quite a bit different, but going from a Meg to Inspiration would not be a leap at all. My first training was on a Inspiration, I had a great instructor. Since then I have aquired several RB's that no formal training exists for. I took the time to find out how they function, this means a FULL tear down/reassembly. I have not seen a course that teaches that. The courses that I have had teach what you need for routine maintance, not things like how to fix a problem with the first stage etc.
Not to try and start an arguement, but you being an instructor, I would expect that response. Now I do agree training is neccessary, (I'm doing an Inspiration Trimix course in about a week). I'm doing the course as there is many differences from OC trimix (the car vs tractor trailer thing). But I also don't think that going from one similar rebreather to another would take very much.
I recently was on a trip were there was a prototype for new RB. A bit different lay out than an Inspiration (horizontal scrubber, tanks sat under scrubber, but OTS counter lungs) I talked with the developers a bit, and I wouldn't have hesitated to dive it with just a bit of time to get fimilar with the electronics (very advanced from the Inspirations!!!). Why? He tore it down (to brag a bit) and I was pointing out differences and the rational behind them as fast as he was.
Maybe I'm a bit more mechanically oriented thatn most RB divers (I'm a amature machinist and starting on robotics). But there is a saying..............IF you can't build one, you shouldn't be diving one.[/FONT
]
 
DepthCharge:
I agree that going from a Inspiration to a Mk series would be quite a bit different, but going from a Meg to Inspiration would not be a leap at all. My first training was on a Inspiration, I had a great instructor. Since then I have aquired several RB's that no formal training exists for. I took the time to find out how they function, this means a FULL tear down/reassembly. I have not seen a course that teaches that. The courses that I have had teach what you need for routine maintance, not things like how to fix a problem with the first stage etc.
Not to try and start an arguement, but you being an instructor, I would expect that response. Now I do agree training is neccessary, (I'm doing an Inspiration Trimix course in about a week). I'm doing the course as there is many differences from OC trimix (the car vs tractor trailer thing). But I also don't think that going from one similar rebreather to another would take very much.
I recently was on a trip were there was a prototype for new RB. A bit different lay out than an Inspiration (horizontal scrubber, tanks sat under scrubber, but OTS counter lungs) I talked with the developers a bit, and I wouldn't have hesitated to dive it with just a bit of time to get fimilar with the electronics (very advanced from the Inspirations!!!). Why? He tore it down (to brag a bit) and I was pointing out differences and the rational behind them as fast as he was.
Maybe I'm a bit more mechanically oriented thatn most RB divers (I'm a amature machinist and starting on robotics). But there is a saying..............IF you can't build one, you shouldn't be diving one.[/FONT
]

My response really wasn't from an instructor's point of view but rather an experienced CCR diver.. I don;t believe in every mod requiring retraining.. In many of my points I said SUPERVISION, this quite frankly could be another experienced diver on the unit in question.

The level of supervision or training depends on the level of difference and the diver.. Its obviously much easier for an Inspiration diver to go to a Meg than vice versa since the counterlung volume on the meg is much smaller so buoyancy shifts are much less.. I remember my first free ascent during my initial inspiration training in my drysuit, I really didn;t know how fast I had to dump the loop and ascending from 60fsw controlling 3 air spaces I lost control and hit the surface ( Not too fast, I probably could have stopped it if I absolutely had to after it was evident that the surface was likely I just made it safe)
SOme diver are totally capable of doing a teardown and reassembling to see how things work others need guidance..
If you were a trimix inspiration diver, and decided to switch to a meg, a few dives with an instructor (to get certified at the same level) or a similiarly qualified person should be enough..
Reqardless of how its done the diver has to learn and practice the new emergency skills.

I have explaned the workings of the HH to many divers and infact wrote kevins manual and never charged a penny for the "training" so its not about money but safety.

BTW in my CCR classes We do full tear downs, the units come as apart as I can get them within reason (im not going to do a reg overhaul!) .. I also have "defective" components to show common failures and how to fix them. (I'm not going to take new hose fittings apart but I have new and abused spares to show how its done and what tools are needed.. Granted my classes are not cheap nor are they short.. If you price my classes compared to alot of other instructors I'm probably one of the more expensive ones around, but I am thorough.

On my trimx ccr class the minimum dive time is usually 12-15 hours, in warm water with the proper students I'll run most dives 3+ hours with multiple 100m dives.

Too bad your not going to Zero G, Its a great place to learn and have lots of sun.. This year's (starting 8/21/04) event will have over 50 ccr divers!
 
padiscubapro:
My response really wasn't from an instructor's point of view but rather an experienced CCR diver.. I don;t believe in every mod requiring retraining.. In many of my points I said SUPERVISION, this quite frankly could be another experienced diver on the unit in question.

The level of supervision or training depends on the level of difference and the diver.. Its obviously much easier for an Inspiration diver to go to a Meg than vice versa since the counterlung volume on the meg is much smaller so buoyancy shifts are much less.. I remember my first free ascent during my initial inspiration training in my drysuit, I really didn;t know how fast I had to dump the loop and ascending from 60fsw controlling 3 air spaces I lost control and hit the surface ( Not too fast, I probably could have stopped it if I absolutely had to after it was evident that the surface was likely I just made it safe)
SOme diver are totally capable of doing a teardown and reassembling to see how things work others need guidance..
If you were a trimix inspiration diver, and decided to switch to a meg, a few dives with an instructor (to get certified at the same level) or a similiarly qualified person should be enough..
Reqardless of how its done the diver has to learn and practice the new emergency skills.

I have explaned the workings of the HH to many divers and infact wrote kevins manual and never charged a penny for the "training" so its not about money but safety.

BTW in my CCR classes We do full tear downs, the units come as apart as I can get them within reason (im not going to do a reg overhaul!) .. I also have "defective" components to show common failures and how to fix them. (I'm not going to take new hose fittings apart but I have new and abused spares to show how its done and what tools are needed.. Granted my classes are not cheap nor are they short.. If you price my classes compared to alot of other instructors I'm probably one of the more expensive ones around, but I am thorough.

On my trimx ccr class the minimum dive time is usually 12-15 hours, in warm water with the proper students I'll run most dives 3+ hours with multiple 100m dives.

Too bad your not going to Zero G, Its a great place to learn and have lots of sun.. This year's (starting 8/21/04) event will have over 50 ccr divers!
Thanks, that clears up some confusion. I realize that in a course there really isn't time to do a fully tear down like I was describing, I was primarily explaining where I was coming from.
I have met a few instructors that money wasn't the primary driving force (very few). Those are the few that are worth what they ask. Some of the best that I've had is John Garvin and Andreas Matthes. If you're like them then you're worth it. :wink:
I was interested in Zero Gravity, but I was late in thinking about it, and my budget can't take a 4th trip this year. I may try and go next year, however I'm a bit disappointed in there policy regarding support. :sad: According to Reg, they will not supply consumables for home-builts, only commercially available units. I find it a bit strange considering the safety record of homebuilts (not talking about modifieds :wink: ).
 
DepthCharge:
Thanks, that clears up some confusion. I realize that in a course there really isn't time to do a fully tear down like I was describing, I was primarily explaining where I was coming from.
I have met a few instructors that money wasn't the primary driving force (very few). Those are the few that are worth what they ask. Some of the best that I've had is John Garvin and Andreas Matthes. If you're like them then you're worth it. :wink:
I was interested in Zero Gravity, but I was late in thinking about it, and my budget can't take a 4th trip this year. I may try and go next year, however I'm a bit disappointed in there policy regarding support. :sad: According to Reg, they will not supply consumables for home-builts, only commercially available units. I find it a bit strange considering the safety record of homebuilts (not talking about modifieds :wink: ).

I enjoy teaching and my livelyhood doesn't depend on diving so I have the luxury of not having to comptete for students, but I still have to make it worth while for me to take timeout to teach, even at what I charge for my classes its alot less than I can make with my consulting projects or my primary job on overtime.
Besides I really dont want a student thats looking for the cheapest way out, I want one thats going to put some effortin, will use and expand on what they are taught, and realizes you get what you pay for.


Its not that they dont WANT to support home builts, its more that you cant show a certification for the unit you are using.. Even if you were say inspiration certified, and managed to but say a meg and have been diving it for months, without a card with a meg cert on it you couldn;t dive it..
Erika worked very card getting the Cayman watersports to accept diveing going beyond the norm, but part of it requires the diver to be certified for what they are going to do OR be enrolled in a class.
 

Back
Top Bottom