When do RB's change

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DC,

that's an intresting question, and, after giving it some thought, quite a tough one to amswer.

Manufacturer's point of view is likely that most any change means it's not their unit anymore. Understandable, especially from a liability point of view.

At first I figured it's a clearcut situation, whenever you change a substancial part of you RB, such as the loop, position of the lungs, operating principle or electronics.
For example if you bolt a Hammerhead to your Inspiration it's not an Inspiration anymore. The Hammerhead electronics are considerable different, the layout of the head likewise (3 or 4 O2 cells, batteries out of the loop). Or changing a Jetsam KISS into an eCCR. The KISS valve is the reason for the name, by adding electronics the unit becomes more complex.

Yet no one would think twice of replacing the old analog electronics of a MK design rebreather with something more current ... you probably have to to keep it diving reliably. On the other hand the most noticable design feature of those rebreathers is the center section with the backmounted counterlung. Changes to either would certainly turn it into something other than a MK design.

So to the substancial part I would add the substancial design feature.

In case of either the KISS valve (which has been added to an Inspiration or two, and replaced the electronics and solenoid on a MK15.5 and converted several SCRs) and the Hammerhead (which is currently available as an aftermarket part for the Inspiration and KISS) I'm sure most divers will referto their respective units with both names: HH Inspiration, MK15.5 KISS, KISS Dolphin etc. Every once in a while you'll come across someone with enough creativity to find a new (and good) name like Weenie's XCR (an EDO-04 SCR with a KISS valve CCR mode which can be change from one operating principle to the other within a couple of minutes, the 'x' denotes either 'S' or 'C').

Small changes in my opinion don't really change the rebreather, such as adding a larger case to an Inspiration to hold 7 ltr. tanks or changing from a factory BC to an aftermarket bp/w combo.

Stefan


PS: Joe, have a great time at Sunset House. Dive safe. :wink:
 
padiscubapro:
Its not that they dont WANT to support home builts, its more that you cant show a certification for the unit you are using.. Even if you were say inspiration certified, and managed to but say a meg and have been diving it for months, without a card with a meg cert on it you couldn;t dive it..
Erika worked very card getting the Cayman watersports to accept diveing going beyond the norm, but part of it requires the diver to be certified for what they are going to do OR be enrolled in a class.
OK, I understand what you are saying here............Let me ask a question If Kevin Gur showed up (he's the only one I 'm familiar with that has a prototype RB :wink: ) with his OUROBOROS and AFAIK there is no cert for it yet..........would he receive support?
 
DepthCharge:

Let me ask a question If Kevin Gur showed up (he's the only one I 'm familiar with that has a prototype RB :wink: ) with his OUROBOROS and AFAIK there is no cert for it yet..........would he receive support?
Actually, there is more than one prototype, and a handfull (if that) of people diving them.

I'm sure Kevin would, at least at ZeroG, get the support because
a. he's the manufacturer/designer with a real biz
b. a very well known and accomplished diver (head of IANTD UK, I believe)
they probably have one of the textbooks (forgot which one) he authored
for IANTD at Sunset House
c. they supported the Nemesis last year, which also was a prototype
d. if all else fails I'm sure Tom, who also attends ZeroG. could bring a c-card
that says Ouroboros on it ... if Kevin doesn't have one already. :wink:
 
DepthCharge:
I have a question that I’d like to pose to the group…………When you start modifying a particular rebreather, when is it no longer the unit it started out as?

The best example right now is the Inspiration. If you take a 2 year old unit and add all the available (aftermarket) mods: Howell ADV, Howell or another OC/DSV, HH electronics, 4th cell holder, neoprene, and/or back mounted counterlungs…………when is it no longer an Inspiration? And if it’s still an Inspiration, why?

This is not the only unit………different scrubbers for Azimuth & Drager (ExtendAire), electronic(s) packages for the KISS ETC……
I’d like to get the opinion of as many as possible.


This is an interesting question. When I had the extended shell built for my Inspiration, and the Widolf mask with bail-out system installed on it, I showed it to Martin Parker.

I said: "Martin, how do you like it?" His answer was: "I don't!" I said to him: "But, Martin, it's all stock except for the 7-liter tanks!" And he said: "Oh, OK, I like it!" :eyebrow:

Of course, Bob Howell is no longer in the business of selling stuff for the Inspiration, but the factory now produces an ADV. So, what was once a "mod" is now a stock item.

The HammerHead is a "mod", but judging by the fact that the heads of a couple of training agencies that I know of use them, they are at least tacitly accepted.

So, as at least several other writers on this board have pointed out,---IT DEPENDS!!!
 
caveseeker7:
Actually, there is more than one prototype, and a handfull (if that) of people diving them.

I'm sure Kevin would, at least at ZeroG, get the support because
a. he's the manufacturer/designer with a real biz
b. a very well known and accomplished diver (head of IANTD UK, I believe)
they probably have one of the textbooks (forgot which one) he authored
for IANTD at Sunset House
c. they supported the Nemesis last year, which also was a prototype
d. if all else fails I'm sure Tom, who also attends ZeroG. could bring a c-card
that says Ouroboros on it ... if Kevin doesn't have one already. :wink:
So..........then it's not universally applied. Not that I thought it was. Of course being a private business they can elect to sell to whom ever the want.
The hype they put out about it should be changed. All's it says it that it's for RB's both CCR & SCR. Nowhere does it state that it has to be a commerically available unit. From what it sounds like it's primarily for manufactures, not the everyday diver. I don't have a problem with that, but it should be promoted as that. The line "Any SCR or CCR diver can join in with Zero Gravity" is not true.
I'm of the mind that rules apply to everyone equally, or get rid of the rule(s).
OK off my soapbox :wink:
None of this is meant to take anything away from Kevin's (or anyone elses) many accomplishments
 
BigJetDriver69:
This is an interesting question. When I had the extended shell built for my Inspiration, and the Widolf mask with bail-out system installed on it, I showed it to Martin Parker.

I said: "Martin, how do you like it?" His answer was: "I don't!" I said to him: "But, Martin, it's all stock except for the 7-liter tanks!" And he said: "Oh, OK, I like it!" :eyebrow:

Of course, Bob Howell is no longer in the business of selling stuff for the Inspiration, but the factory now produces an ADV. So, what was once a "mod" is now a stock item.

The HammerHead is a "mod", but judging by the fact that the heads of a couple of training agencies that I know of use them, they are at least tacitly accepted.

So, as at least several other writers on this board have pointed out,---IT DEPENDS!!!
Yup, the answer seems to be...............IT DEPENDS. I think tho that the key point would be (unfortunately) what a lawyer would say. And that would depend on whether it was a benefit or drawback to the manufacture. What I mean is.......if you modify a commerically available RB and:
1 Try to open a manufacturing business with just that one mod and all the rest identical, then you would be sued for copying it.
2 If you made a mod and got injured, the the company would say, that it was no longer their RB and they are not liable.
Even if it was not the mod, but the "stock" part of the unit that caused the injury.
A good schyster would have it both ways :eyebrow:
I'm waiting for someone to say that all rebreathers are copies of their particular unit...and don't laugh, look what's going on with the HID light.
 
DepthCharge:
OK, I understand what you are saying here............Let me ask a question If Kevin Gur showed up (he's the only one I 'm familiar with that has a prototype RB :wink: ) with his OUROBOROS and AFAIK there is no cert for it yet..........would he receive support?
actually there are SIX prototypes!
Kevin and one of his mates dove them (as well as oneone who wanted a test dive).. Kevin is a COMMERCIAL manufacturer and he in effect is certifying the unit is safe to dive, just as Leon has dove prototypes of various megs and mauricio with the nemesis in the past.

Sunset house has no tbl with HH mods, since it IS a commercial product. I was the only diver last year using a HH at zero G and have used it at sunsethouse on many occasions. This year there were several divers using HH on both the Inspiration and Meg rebreathers.

Bruce Partridge was diving his prototype controller on a meg and also had two other mesga fitted with his prototype controller.
 
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