Why do Used Divesoft Liberty's Lose so much value?

[Matan]

I think the Liberty is one of the most sophisticated CCRs on the market today. It seems well engineered with a thoughtful and dedicated team behind it.

Having two redundant systems plus helium sensors but without the gimmicks (fake CO2 sensors) of others puts it in a category of its own when it comes to safety and reliability.

3. Almost.. too engineered. From what I’ve seen some of the complexity in the Liberty went too far and yet it has some design flaws IMO - like the need for a fan to remove moisture. Let’s be honest that’s a crutch due to a design flaw. I’m sure they’ll improve it eventually.

You write one thing and it's opposite.
The Liberty can be taught in engineering schools for overdesign.
Just to be clear - your comment mentioned the Liberty has a fan inside the head?


Matan.

 

[floridabobbeckner]

Interesting that you authoritatively state that it is overdesigned but then ask for clarity about a fan in the head. Likely just me fighting windmills.

There is no fan in the head. The fan is an accessory that some people employ as a simpler solution for drying the cells.

 

[Matan]

Interesting that you authoritatively state that it is overdesigned but then ask for clarity about a fan in the head. Likely just me fighting windmills.

There is no fan in the head. The fan is an accessory that some people employ as a simpler solution for drying the cells.

I stand corrected as I asked.

regarding over design:

1. Four O2 sensors.
2. Two controllers.
3. Helium Sensors.
4. Customized Apeks first stages (as opposed to simple block after a small LP hose like all other rebreathers).
5. HUD holder with a ton of little screws and a slide (literally fallen off my BOV during travel more than once).
6. Counterlungs with velcros.
7. Pressure sensors for loop pos/neg checks.
8. Two solonoids.

To me this list alone is enough to meet that claim - the "fan" that was posted not by me - I though to be the cherry on top.




Matan.

 

[floridabobbeckner]

Let me start by saying that everyone's points made regarding over design are good and could even be viewed as correct when our frame of reference is considered without understanding theirs. I dont disagree with any, really. But I wanted to share what we found out prior to purchasing any Liberties.

1. Four O2 sensors. Turn off as many as you like. Capacity is 4. NOT the requirement. Can be done during or before diving.
2. Two controllers. Remove one. They are independent and I only use one and use the second as a spare.
3. Helium Sensors. I agree and didnt get them when ordered, they are just silly. BUT some people swear by them.
4. Customized Apeks first stages (as opposed to simple block after a small LP hose like all other rebreathers). Nah. I use Scubapros. The customization isnt necessary and is only an add on part. But DS loves them and swears by them.
5. HUD holder with a ton of little screws and a slide (literally fallen off my BOV during travel more than once). I do not love the HUD holder, either. I admit it slides off of rail but that is what makes it adjustable left to right for the diver. The screws....DS loves screws, too. Must own shares in the company that makes them. No argument on the screws other than I dont know why it matters that much in a buying decision. Incidentally: the designer will make your head hurt explaining why they went that way.
6. Counterlungs with velcros. Not unique to DS. I am not a huge fan of velcro but it has a place to help hold the BMCL to the harness, although I admit I have a solution when the velcro wears out.
7. Pressure sensors for loop pos/neg checks. I have grown to like the fact that I KNOW for sure what the loop is doing. It's a pretty darn accurate test considering I do it in the diveshed and dont need machinery to see such fine measurements. Again, dont use them. They are not necessary and you can do it old school and skip the pressure evaluation at start up. And if they fail then who cares. No need to service those parts.
8. Two solonoids. Agreed they are not necessary but DS will, again, explain why they do it. Not the least of which is their marketing as "most fault tolerant rebreather" and a solenoid is required to say that. Having used eCCRs for a while I can say that solenoids are pretty darn reliable. Having two seems unnecessary....but ignore it. It isnt going to impact your dive in any way. Well, unless you need it.

What we havent touched on are the benefits to these design choices that DS has made.

On a personal note, I clearly like the unit. I also like my Gemini. I liked my Fathom and my Meg. I did not like the Satori or other bellows units. The WHY I like the units varies and for sure it is personal choice. I support whatever option people choose but I do like there to be accurate information available to make that choice. In the end, I'll dive with you on whatever unit you ride.

PS: my thoughts on AP diving and Hollis were anecdotal and based on what I see in the wilds of Florida. Mostly in caves but also on tech boats. Zero real data to support my position and I admit that fully.

 

[evandroairton]

AP is huge outside North America. They lack quality support here and their sales suffer because of it.

As a newbie AP instructor in the americas (Brazil/South America), from what i've saw, i can say they are really trying to improve that, including offering technician courses, only the electronics must be repaired in the UK, and the people working with AP in the US are real good persons, with a lot of will to make it great again this side of the Atlantic.

 

[Tracy]

As a newbie AP instructor in the americas (Brazil/South America), from what i've saw, i can say they are really trying to improve that, including offering technician courses, only the electronics must be repaired in the UK, and the people working with AP in the US are real good persons, with a lot of will to make it great again this side of the Atlantic.

As long as their heads require sending across the pond for service, it will still kill a lot of their US market. JJ is the same way. The entire US isn't Florida. Some of us have a 3-4 month local diving season. Sending the head out for 2 months doesn't make customers happy. Better US support with loaner heads are a workaround, but I haven't heard of that happening as of yet.

 

[floridabobbeckner]

I agree: Florida rules!

 

[rjack321]

Let me start by saying that everyone's points made regarding over design are good and could even be viewed as correct when our frame of reference is considered without understanding theirs. I dont disagree with any, really. But I wanted to share what we found out prior to purchasing any Liberties.

1. Four O2 sensors. Turn off as many as you like. Capacity is 4. NOT the requirement. Can be done during or before diving.
2. Two controllers. Remove one. They are independent and I only use one and use the second as a spare.
3. Helium Sensors. I agree and didnt get them when ordered, they are just silly. BUT some people swear by them.
4. Customized Apeks first stages (as opposed to simple block after a small LP hose like all other rebreathers). Nah. I use Scubapros. The customization isnt necessary and is only an add on part. But DS loves them and swears by them.
5. HUD holder with a ton of little screws and a slide (literally fallen off my BOV during travel more than once). I do not love the HUD holder, either. I admit it slides off of rail but that is what makes it adjustable left to right for the diver. The screws....DS loves screws, too. Must own shares in the company that makes them. No argument on the screws other than I dont know why it matters that much in a buying decision. Incidentally: the designer will make your head hurt explaining why they went that way.
6. Counterlungs with velcros. Not unique to DS. I am not a huge fan of velcro but it has a place to help hold the BMCL to the harness, although I admit I have a solution when the velcro wears out.
7. Pressure sensors for loop pos/neg checks. I have grown to like the fact that I KNOW for sure what the loop is doing. It's a pretty darn accurate test considering I do it in the diveshed and dont need machinery to see such fine measurements. Again, dont use them. They are not necessary and you can do it old school and skip the pressure evaluation at start up. And if they fail then who cares. No need to service those parts.
8. Two solonoids. Agreed they are not necessary but DS will, again, explain why they do it. Not the least of which is their marketing as "most fault tolerant rebreather" and a solenoid is required to say that. Having used eCCRs for a while I can say that solenoids are pretty darn reliable. Having two seems unnecessary....but ignore it. It isnt going to impact your dive in any way. Well, unless you need it.

What we havent touched on are the benefits to these design choices that DS has made.

On a personal note, I clearly like the unit. I also like my Gemini. I liked my Fathom and my Meg. I did not like the Satori or other bellows units. The WHY I like the units varies and for sure it is personal choice. I support whatever option people choose but I do like there to be accurate information available to make that choice. In the end, I'll dive with you on whatever unit you ride.

PS: my thoughts on AP diving and Hollis were anecdotal and based on what I see in the wilds of Florida. Mostly in caves but also on tech boats. Zero real data to support my position and I admit that fully.

None of this explains the "loss in value" that supposedly afflicts Liberty's more than other CCRs. I don't track new vs used sales in the CCR universe but pretending the "loss" is real and somehow uniquely large in Liberty's might have an explanation...

1) The folks attracted to buying an "overengineered" Liberty in the first place is the same kind of mentality that is uniquely bothered having every screw less than perfectly new. The only way to sell is to mark it down significantly
2) The folks trying to sell a Liberty really just want it gone as fast as possible, so they mark it down.
3) possibly other reasons these two are just off the top of my head.

I'm not actually sure Liberty's lose value anymore than any other 1yo 50hour CCR. The only CCRs I see "holding their value" are the ones with wait lists to get, e.g. rewind a few years and sidewinders had a 12 month lead time, 1yo sidewinder was basically new pricing accordingly. This has since changed.

 

[evandroairton]

As long as their heads require sending across the pond for service, it will still kill a lot of their US market. JJ is the same way. The entire US isn't Florida. Some of us have a 3-4 month local diving season. Sending the head out for 2 months doesn't make customers happy. Better US support with loaner heads are a workaround, but I haven't heard of that happening as of yet.

Can see your point

 

[rjack321]

As long as their heads require sending across the pond for service, it will still kill a lot of their US market. JJ is the same way. The entire US isn't Florida. Some of us have a 3-4 month local diving season. Sending the head out for 2 months doesn't make customers happy. Better US support with loaner heads are a workaround, but I haven't heard of that happening as of yet.

Does anyone have loaner heads? I havent sent my Meg head in for many years now but when I needed a new HUD it wasnt super speedy, although not 2 months either