Why do Used Divesoft Liberty's Lose so much value?

[BoltSnap]

1. Concerns the company will be around longterm. I hope they do, but will they? AP, Hollis, DR, etc.. are unlikely to go away. I’d rather stick with someone who has long term backing.

Why do you think so? What signs do you see that tell you this is going to happen?

 

[DeprecatedMustang]

I have enough startup, finance, tech, and M/A background to know that this won't be a typical growth play.

More power to you then.

The original purpose of this thread was “why is their resale so bad”.

Resale is driven by various market factors, one of which is the perception of potential buyers.

I am a potential buyer and these are my reasons. We can disagree on our perception of what the future holds, and someone will be right and wrong. I shared my thought process and I know I am not the only one that thinks the Liberty is overly complicated.

 

[DeprecatedMustang]

Why do you think so? What signs do you see that tell you this is going to happen?

I don’t have any signs this will happen. They seem to have very competent and capable engineers and a clear vision of where they are going. I genuinely wish them well and hope they are successful.

Two things can be true.

That does not mean I personally think they are mature enough that I would buy their rebreather, nor does it align with what I am looking for. I prefer to buy into a vendor and ecosystem that is more mature reflecting my conservatism and desire to have a “long tail” of support.

Again, I think we are having some slightly divergent conversations here. The original thread was about why their resale isn’t great. I articulated my perception (as a potential resale buyer since I am currently in the market for a new CCR).

Of course others will have their own views and values which aren’t aligned with mine, and I think it’s great there are so many options out from the last time I was in the market (15yrs ago).

 

[BoltSnap]

I don’t have any signs this will happen. They seem to have very competent and capable engineers and a clear vision of where they are going. I genuinely wish them well and hope they are successful.

Two things can be true.

That does not mean I personally think they are mature enough that I would buy their rebreather, nor does it align with what I am looking for. I prefer to buy into a vendor and ecosystem that is more mature reflecting my conservatism and desire to have a “long tail” of support.

Again, I think we are having some slightly divergent conversations here. The original thread was about why their resale isn’t great. I articulated my perception (as a potential resale buyer since I am currently in the market for a new CCR).

Of course others will have their own views and values which aren’t aligned with mine, and I think it’s great there are so many options out from the last time I was in the market (15yrs ago).

I wasn't disputing what you were suggesting, I merely wanted to know why you thought so. It doesn't matter to me. I am going for an XCCR myself when the time comes.

 

[mr_v]

@bigblue_hi,

I don't have a dog in this game, and your point about Liberty's engineering aspects is well-taken. However, I am curious why you would say the following:

I prefer to buy into a vendor and ecosystem that is more mature reflecting my conservatism and desire to have a “long tail” of support.

What do you mean by saying "more mature?" Also, long-term support is an interesting thing... Hollis Explorer, HammerHead, Defender, Meg 2.7/15 are just some of the units that come to mind when we discuss upgrade paths.

I am asking these questions because one may misinterpret your statement.

 

[floridabobbeckner]

Dang post is getting popular while I am trying to disengage.

I am unsure how to make observations without them feeling personal, but they are not. AP Diving and Hollis are all but dead from what I can tell. Having those two in the top three (and units which have had nearly zero improvements in years) throws the whole position outta whack. Again, an observation from my POV and not a personal attack. I have not seen either of those two brands on a boat or a cave in 6+ years.

Saying that is not meant to mean "buy Divesoft". It is meant to question the basis of the argument and push it towards fallacious.

I am happy for people to buy whatever they want to use and get support for. I also want info presented to be factually correct and not influenced by opinion. IE: cell drier is a convenience, not a necessity and not a design flaw. Removing the cell carriage is as simple as a Meg and is a perfectly acceptable way to dry the cells. The cell carriage and placement can be discussed as a feature/benefit including it's tradeoffs. But it is not faulty design when the facts are reviewed...it is a choice which not everyone will agree was best. I do not think it is best in my application; however, in the normal/most common use case I can see the logic.

Anyway, I wish sellers of used units the best of luck, whatever brand.

 

[jale]

Been a few days since the last traffic in here but I just found it. Full disclosure, I own two liberties right now. A back mount that can be used as a heavy and a side mount. I also own a gemini. I have multiple hundreds of hours on eight units so I am an agnostic rebreather user. I don't know if my observations will be of any use but what the heck.

I started on a MEG 2.7 and had just shy of 1100 hours when I got rid of that. Move to a fathom. Had 400 hours on that and then moved to the liberty. I have dived a joki, a sidewinder, the gemini, the liberties, a satori, among others. I am by no means an expert on any of this. I also sell quite a bit of dive gear. Some of which is mine and some of which was purchased for the purpose of resale.

Rebreathers have specific characteristics that impact their value that varies by brand and manufacture date. That's just a fact that goes along with many other toys. When you buy something for the purpose of reselling it you will never get the same value as if it were yours for years. No matter what you say to the potential buyer, you will not have the history as if it were yours. It will not have the same resale to the purchaser and it certainly does not have the same emotional value to the seller. Values are decreased in those use cases.

I have not had any issues with the Liberty since I've been using it since 2021. I do not consider a botched software update or some software Gremlins as a rebreather problem. Although I will agree that it may manifest as an issue that impacts it's use that would generally be in advance of splashing.

I'm not aware of any rebreather manufacturer that does not recommend an annual service. Variety of reasons and certainly not limited simply to normal maintenance problems and I would offer that it would be seen as a limit to their liability if you violated their prescribed maintenance process.

Having said that, I have never sent a unit in for service. I've always done it or sought help from others with more experience and technical ability. I will do nothing different with the liberty.

The Liberty has more bits and pieces and certainly more o-rings. It also has more capacity and capability than most any other unit on the market. I love shearwater, but they are hammers. The Liberty electronics are not hammers. They do more than shearwater has any interest in doing. And that's okay. I was initially intimidated by the capacity of the electronics but have grown to appreciate it. There was a learning curve especially after 12 years on shearwater. I would hardly consider it unmanageable. You can also decide what things you do not wish to use in the handset and turn them off.

To answer the original question which is why do they lose value, I don't believe that is restricted to this brand. I think there are several specifics at play with this unit Rodney is selling. I don't think there's anything wrong with the unit nor do I think it would absolutely be necessary to update it for the cost of $5,500. Absolutely anyone looking to purchase it would use that to negotiate the sale price. Certainly I would. A unit that was maintained and updated as the manufacturer prescribed would have significantly more value, as it should. To apply the specifics of this case to all liberties is probably a bit unfair.

Apologize for the long and fairly useless post, but there it is. And I do wish Rodney good luck with the sale. And once he's desperate enough, I hope he calls me!

Hi
Interesting about the Joki. First time I see a us based SB member mentioning this unit. Do you still have it?

 

[TTPaws]

Dang post is getting popular while I am trying to disengage.

I am unsure how to make observations without them feeling personal, but they are not. AP Diving and Hollis are all but dead from what I can tell.

I don't know how you can tell this and I can't speak to Hollis, but my dealing with AP seems to be strong. I run into a number of AP CCRs visiting the island. On island I know of 3 AP & 2 Megs. It would be interesting if TDI could publish their numbers again, but when they did it last time IIRC AP had about a 40 share all to themselves.

 

[Tracy]

I don't know how you can tell this and I can't speak to Hollis, but my dealing with AP seems to be strong. I run into a number of AP CCRs visiting the island. On island I know of 3 AP & 2 Megs. It would be interesting if TDI could publish their numbers again, but when they did it last time IIRC AP had about a 40 share all to themselves.

AP is huge outside North America. They lack quality support here and their sales suffer because of it.

 

[floridabobbeckner]

I do not still have the Joki. Put a couple hundred hours on it but went a different direction, the counter lung was entirely too small.