Why do Used Divesoft Liberty's Lose so much value?

[mr_v]

@floridabobbeckner - thank you for the info. Out of curiosity, what are the Divesoft computer pros over Shearwater? I am considering Divesoft monitors for my home grown unit.

 

[SCUBA_NERD]

I don't think the used market value is unique to any one brand and I have a few examples.

In 2015 the MEG 2.5 and 2.7 units ceased production and a new head was made, the MEG 15 head. Though compatible with the other legacy hardware like loop, canister, scrubbers it was something like $5k to replace the head. Users were informed support for 2.5/2.7 devices would go to 2017. Adjusted for inflation that's $6625 today.

I don't know the exact change dates for the Poseidon MK6 to MK7, and when people originally sent them in it seemed to take forever, but I think it was around $3k for an electronics upgrade. Their upgrade process morphed a bit and I didn't follow it but I know the battery pods needed upgrade from say recreational to trimix and it was something like $1200 for just a battery swap because the battery pod included a portion of the electronics. The Poseidon would literally lock you out from diving if it wasn't annually serviced.

The Hollis P2 launched and almost immediately, probably within 2yrs of launch, Shearwater morphed to the DiveCAN system and all the original P2 heads needed an expensive refit if they went back to Hollis. I don't know what the cost was, I didn't send mine, but at the very least it was a new set of Shearwater HUD, Handset, and board plus other service fees so it couldn't have been less than $2500.

I don't think we need to talk about the value of a Hollis Explorer. In 2013 it retailed for $3500, or at least that was the price on the tag on the one I have. I got one literally for free, missing only the cylinder, which I passed on to someone else for free. Effectively these things are now worth nothing except for the pelagic transmitter and the cylinder.

The Sentinel/Redhead changed ownership I think 3 times and honestly I didn't follow it, I have 2 old sentinel to sell and I think they are valued less than $1k for both. It was a huge unit and support outside the UK was minimal at best. These things became essentially boat anchors for divers in the US.

Here in the southeast US we've seen mass adoption of the Choptima and lots of folks dumping AP and rEvo units for a fraction of the price. I sold a trimix upgraded Inspiration Vision, which needs factory service, but otherwise had less than 100hrs on it for $1500 AND it included the original AP Y-BOD electronics/canister/etc and a box with like 40 service kits/tools. A rEvo from a close friend needs factory service and will probably sell for $2500-3500 if he's lucky. Though there is a service center for AP in Florida I don't know if there is a functional service center for rEvo in the US anymore. Why would you buy an old backmount unit which needs an expensive service when you can get a lightly used Choptima (I think the oldest are from 2020-2021) from some Veteran and be all in with service locally for $5-6k?

Currently an electronics upgrade on a Liberty is something like $2200. The company recommends replacement of the lithium batteries every 3 years, a pod which is user replaceable. But older soft goods are always my concern with rebreathers. I once took in, for service, a BC which looked beautiful and well maintained but the corrugated hose pulled right from the bladder. However it was stored the urethane and RF welds had dry rotted and failed. If you buy a used rebreather you expect to have to replace the soft parts like corrugated or especially cooper hoses, counterlung bladders, etc. But none of that is cheap and if it wasn't factory serviced where someone evaluated or replaced those components then that added cost goes into what you are willing to pay used.

Another growing factor is user modifications. Many instructors, probably most in Europe, want you to have an essentially stock rebreather. The manufacturers called for it with RESA and the training agencies have similar requirements. I don't think any instructor will raise hell about a harness change or something minor but they could. If someone buys a used unit and intends to take training from a reputable instructor there is a good chance they will need to pay for things to be returned to stock or updated in some way. If you have say a MEG with backmounted subgravity lungs and a rEvo 3 button MAV block good luck finding an instructor who will train you. This is only going to get worse with ISO training requirements being adopted by essentially all the major training agencies. Instructors have a hard enough time getting insurance, it's not going to get easier, it's in their best interest to follow what mommy training agency asks for.

Lastly you need to factor in trends in the community. Divesoft started with a front mounted counterlung unit and then went backmount counterlungs because of demand. How many people do you see diving front mounted lungs on any platform anymore? It's rare here. If they have something in front of them it's a whole chest mount rebreather. I personally don't see the draw for any of that chestmount clutter, be it lungs or the whole machine. If you have an older unit with a configuration that is in low demand in your region how can you expect to get a high price for it. Someone will want to pay a low price and then make it into a sidemount unit or whatever, essentially only using the head/scrubber. The conversions are something like $4-5k.

It is what it is. Overall I think Divesoft isn't that expensive compared to upgrades from other companies especially not when adjusting for inflation. If you have a local service center, or not, plays a big part in what you'd be willing to pay for a used machine. How much of the device can be, or more importantly should be, user serviced will always be a debate and manufacturers aren't always clearly distinguishing that line. Buying a unit with unknown history is always a gamble, if improperly stored looks can be deceiving and suddenly you have costly replacement parts to buy.

For me a unit which was dove yesterday by the original owner is worth half the cost of current retail ($10,900) as a starting point ($5450). We know it works, but I still want it disassembled and all the seals replaced. Probably the corrugated hoses too cause I don't believe you ever really clean them perfectly from the last user. From Divesoft's website that's almost $1k in service/parts so I deduct that ($4450). If anything isn't stock, or the harness is too small, I'm going to look up those costs and deduct them (too variable but always something). In this case I'd want the 2021 electronics simply for the transmitters so I'm going to deduct that upgrade cost too. Making, in this case, the value somewhere in the range of $2250. However, if it's a front-mounted counterlung unit instead of back-mount, what I'd want, then we need to look at that. Surely I could save on not sending some items for service but the conversion kit from FM to BM is another $1900. For me it's just not worth the investment to buy this unit used since I want too many changes. Not when I could buy a new one with known history and presumably some warranty and pay it off over 12 months interest free.

 

[mr_v]

@SCUBA_NERD - thank you for the analysis - well written and done. To be fair, I can get a MEG 2.7 and replace its head with a new one from Tecme.de for $500, and dive the unit manually. Can I do this with Liberty? Who knows. I can also take a Defender/HH and dive it for another decade with minor upgrades. The entire platform is a solid foundation.

Also, DM me about your friend's rEvo. I need a project.

 

[RainPilot]

I don't know the exact change dates for the Poseidon MK6 to MK7, and when people originally sent them in it seemed to take forever, but I think it was around $3k for an electronics upgrade.

Upgrades were done for free for anyone that had bought a Mk6 in the previous 18 months, so it did take a fair bit of time to get everyone's done. Right now, an upgrade from a 6 to a 7+ (solid state sensors) costs 1200 USD, then you add sensors as you feel necessary

I know the battery pods needed upgrade from say recreational to trimix and it was something like $1200 for just a battery swap because the battery pod included a portion of the electronics.

The batteries were always a sore subject, they were a requirement from dive agencies as a means to ensure people didn't dive beyond their cert limits. A battery costs around 200-400 USD, for the last 3-4 years you can just buy the deep battery from the get-go along with your unit.

The Poseidon would literally lock you out from diving if it wasn't annually serviced.

Service interval is 54 weeks, after that the final test will advise its overdue for another 12 weeks, then it will fail the tests. That being said, if you do go in the water it will operate as usual but will alarm constantly.
The service tech courses can be done by anyone, they don't expire after 2 years etc and the service kits are freely available to anyone who has done the course, I quite often do a combined diver/service course for students who are buying a unit, if they have the necessary skillset to be able to service regs etc.

 

[DeprecatedMustang]

Well I’ll give you my perspective since I am now on the market for an eCCR having sold my old one and taken a few years break from CCR diving.

I think the Liberty is one of the most sophisticated CCRs on the market today. It seems well engineered with a thoughtful and dedicated team behind it.

Having two redundant systems plus helium sensors but without the gimmicks (fake CO2 sensors) of others puts it in a category of its own when it comes to safety and reliability.

I could afford one if I really wanted, and it would meet my needs quite well.

However I will not be buying one. Why?

1. Concerns the company will be around longterm. I hope they do, but will they? AP, Hollis, DR, etc.. are unlikely to go away. I’d rather stick with someone who has long term backing.

2. Europe-based. Harder to get support in the US. Geography is king

3. Almost.. too engineered. From what I’ve seen some of the complexity in the Liberty went too far and yet it has some design flaws IMO - like the need for a fan to remove moisture. Let’s be honest that’s a crutch due to a design flaw. I’m sure they’ll improve it eventually.

4. Service. Being EU based and requiring a regular factory service is a big negative meaning I only have my CCR 90% of the time.

To clarify, I haven’t dove one so can’t speak to its performance, but all of the ownership issues around it are negative enough for me.

TLDR - it’s the same reason lambos are fun to drive but not to own. Fords are dull but boy are they easier to find someone to work on them.

 

[floridabobbeckner]

Some Good points. Not all are correct, though. All things are my worthless personal opinion.
1. Helium sensors are too moisture sensitive so I'd not recommend those to people.
2. CO2 sensor, I agree not worth the complexity.
3. Being around long term. Can't say that on any unit, no guarantees in life; however, AP diving and Hollis are constantly on the ropes. Dive Rite is probably solid provided they create a long term ops plan. Divesoft makes nearly everything in house which was expensive before but affords them solid ground going forward. They are very strong in non-US markets and way underperform here. To be honest, none of the 3 mfrs you name are on my list to buy a unit from. Various reasons.
4. EU based with full sales and service in Gainesville, Florida. Maybe that office goes away, maybe not. But DS will train you to be a service technician for your unit so you can service it. Except for very few pieces/systems.
5. Too Engineered. Well, they are Eastern European so they love to solve non existent problems. I see not complexity that went too far when viewed from their "why". I dont always agree with their why but they made errors although the did make trade-offs--mfrs always do. Removing the moisture with a fan isnt necessary, it's just seen as simpler. I have no unit that doesnt need cells dried. In one way or another. I will concede that their design will hold moisture on long dives (over 5 hours) more than some other units. The way way they designed that carriage was definitely on purpose, though. They stand behind their reasons.
6. Service, same as 4. Zero reason to send it to the EU, not today, anyway.

Now on the subject of cars. I could go on for hours. I think comparing a Volvo to a Liberty is more accurate. And the other unit would be whatever is most appropriate. I would compare AP or Hollis to a....well, doesnt matter. But the Liberty is advertised as the "most fault tolerant" unit out there.

I am happy for people to buy, use and enjoy whatever unit they want. Doesnt impact me but I did want to have a few counterpoints out there for people who may be curious about a variety of units especially since I have a couple Liberties and some experience on them--among many others.

 

[mr_v]

@bigblue_hi,

DiveSoft long-term availability should not be a concern. The company company manufactures almost everything in house, diversifies its product line, and invests in high-quality. If DiveSoft ever faces headwinds, there will be buyers or investors willing to step in. DiveSoft isn't a mom-and-pop shop that produces only a few boutique units every year.

European-based manufacturers are not a concern. DiveSoft has a service center in FL. Purchases arrive to my doorstep in two days. I have not dealt with DiveSoft a lot, but my experience with rEvo - a Belgian-based manufacturer - has been excellent. The North American market is too appealing for DiveSoft to ignore.

 

[DeprecatedMustang]

@bigblue_hi,

DiveSoft long-term availability should not be a concern. The company company manufactures almost everything in house, diversifies its product line, and invests in high-quality. If DiveSoft ever faces headwinds, there will be buyers or investors willing to step in. DiveSoft isn't a mom-and-pop shop that produces only a few boutique units every year.

European-based manufacturers are not a concern. DiveSoft has a service center in FL. Purchases arrive to my doorstep in two days. I have not dealt with DiveSoft a lot, but my experience with rEvo - a Belgian-based manufacturer - has been excellent. The North American market is too appealing for DiveSoft to ignore.

You have no idea what the future holds. The rebreather market is small with tiny CAGR. Have you ever worked with investors? I have. They want big returns. Returns that the rebreather market simply won’t give them.

I feel much more comfortable with a company that has either military contracts or is diversified outside of rebreathers.

 

[DeprecatedMustang]

Some Good points. Not all are correct, though. All things are my worthless personal opinion.
1. Helium sensors are too moisture sensitive so I'd not recommend those to people.
2. CO2 sensor, I agree not worth the complexity.
3. Being around long term. Can't say that on any unit, no guarantees in life; however, AP diving and Hollis are constantly on the ropes. Dive Rite is probably solid provided they create a long term ops plan. Divesoft makes nearly everything in house which was expensive before but affords them solid ground going forward. They are very strong in non-US markets and way underperform here. To be honest, none of the 3 mfrs you name are on my list to buy a unit from. Various reasons.
4. EU based with full sales and service in Gainesville, Florida. Maybe that office goes away, maybe not. But DS will train you to be a service technician for your unit so you can service it. Except for very few pieces/systems.
5. Too Engineered. Well, they are Eastern European so they love to solve non existent problems. I see not complexity that went too far when viewed from their "why". I dont always agree with their why but they made errors although the did make trade-offs--mfrs always do. Removing the moisture with a fan isnt necessary, it's just seen as simpler. I have no unit that doesnt need cells dried. In one way or another. I will concede that their design will hold moisture on long dives (over 5 hours) more than some other units. The way way they designed that carriage was definitely on purpose, though. They stand behind their reasons.
6. Service, same as 4. Zero reason to send it to the EU, not today, anyway.

Now on the subject of cars. I could go on for hours. I think comparing a Volvo to a Liberty is more accurate. And the other unit would be whatever is most appropriate. I would compare AP or Hollis to a....well, doesnt matter. But the Liberty is advertised as the "most fault tolerant" unit out there.

I am happy for people to buy, use and enjoy whatever unit they want. Doesnt impact me but I did want to have a few counterpoints out there for people who may be curious about a variety of units especially since I have a couple Liberties and some experience on them--among many others.

Okay fair point on the helium sensors if so but that would simply support my point then.

I’ve already addressed the longevity argument. We can simply disagree there but without actual CAGR or market share numbers it’s kinda hard to debate frankly. Since pretty much all dive companies are private they don’t release financials so we can only go by past performance and/assessments of market share.

I have actually thought probably the best way to rate health of the rebreather market is look at data for the used market, rental, and instructor count. In principle it should be possible to collect this data openly and aggregate it.

I was unaware they had a full office in Gainesville so I will concede that point there. It doesn’t change the annual service which I think is too much hassle for a unit (IMO). While I’ve never built rebreathers, I have built other physical things that go in the ocean, and the head fan screams bad engineering to me and is a big red flag.

As for them “making everything themselves” again - this is a negative not a positive, I don’t believe Shearwater is going anywhere, and there are adequate gas and electronics connectors for other industries that work just fine. When I used to build small submersibles, we didn’t go out and reinvent the wheel. We purchased existing DVLs from RDI, wet connectors from Subconn and so forth.

The Volvo example makes me chuckle because that was the last car we owned and literally every tiny thing on it broke. We have owned 2 EU cars (Volvo and BMW) and both were a nightmare to own.

 

[mr_v]

You have no idea what the future holds. The rebreather market is small with tiny CAGR. Have you ever worked with investors? I have. They want big returns. Returns that the rebreather market simply won’t give them.

I feel much more comfortable with a company that has either military contracts or is diversified outside of rebreathers.

I have enough startup, finance, tech, and M/A background to know that this won't be a typical growth play.