Why do Used Divesoft Liberty's Lose so much value?

[mr_v]

@Rodney H,

"Attempts to set new record" and "trying a new advanced equipment configuration" are some of the phrases that describe statistical outliers. That's why we should treat the three unfortunate events as outliers. So what does the data say about CCR diving and scuba fatalities in general?

Here is what we know from various studies:

• CCR diving is more dangerous than OC.
• There is a strong correlation between age and fatalities.
• Gas switching errors are the leading accident factor in tech diving.

Knowing that, I would not worry about Liberty. Get proper trainng, maintain your equipment, stay fit, and practice gas switches.

I did not buy Liberty because of the startup costs and the prescribed maintenance routine. I suspect that the other would be buyers do the same. I have no idea how many units Divesoft sells annually, but weak new unit demands softens the secondary market. Also, spending $5K to update an old unit to the new, arguably, better spec, is a major roadblock.

 

[Dr. Doug Ebersole]

Brett's death appears to have been a medical issue and not related to the rebreather. Those of us on the NSS-CDS Accident Analysis Committe will have the final report on his death written up soon and it will be posted on the NSS-CDS website. I can't comment on the other deaths as I have no knowledge of the details.

 

[Rodney H]

@Rodney H,

"Attempts to set new record" and "trying a new advanced equipment configuration" are some of the phrases that describe statistical outliers. That's why we should treat the three unfortunate events as outliers. So what does the data say about CCR diving and scuba fatalities in general?

Here is what we know from various studies:

• CCR diving is more dangerous than OC.
• There is a strong correlation between age and fatalities.
• Gas switching errors are the leading accident factor in tech diving.

Knowing that, I would not worry about Liberty. Get proper trainng, maintain your equipment, stay fit, and practice gas switches.

I did not buy Liberty because of the startup costs and the prescribed maintenance routine. I suspect that the other would be buyers do the same. I have no idea how many units Divesoft sells annually, but weak new unit demands softens the secondary market. Also, spending $5K to update an old unit to the new, arguably, better spec, is a major roadblock.

Thank you, and that is always great advice!

 

[Rodney H]

Brett's death appears to have been a medical issue and not related to the rebreather. Those of us on the NSS-CDS Accident Analysis Committe will have the final report on his death written up soon and it will be posted on the NSS-CDS website. I can't comment on the other deaths as I have no knowledge of the details.

Dr. Doug, thank you so much! This is something I did not know, and very reassuring. I will be watching for the Accident Analysis Committee report.

 

[nadwidny]

Joe at Divesoft USA, who has spent a lot time telling me these units have many complexities that I as an “end user”should not attempt to maintain. The Divesoft Liberty can only be deemed safe if seen as a whole by a Divesoft technician.

I'm not tracking what used Divesofts are going for, however the above statement and the fact they want yearly servicing would put me off buying one unless it was a smoking good deal. That would be my guess.

 

[RedSeaDiver2]

I have a Dive Soft Liberty CCR that I want to sell.

Can people on Scubaboard help me with setting a fair price?
I want the next diver to have a great deal and not feel as screwed as I feel.

It seems the high priced Liberty's just sit around forever on Facebook Market Place.

I see people who are trying to sell them at unbelievably low prices.

Why do used Divesoft Liberty Rebreathers lose their value so much more than other used rebreathers?


1. Is it the high cost of recommended maintenance and parts?
2. Is it low demand due to experienced divers Brent Hemphill, Han Ting and Axel Schoeller all dying on a Liberty rebreathers in 2023?
3. Is it that Divesoft USA tries to sell people a new rebreather and tells prospective inquisitors stories of their older units being unsafe?
4. Is it that Divesoft USA touts incredibly high prices to scare users into purchasing new rebreathers?
5. What makes the new $12,000 price tag worth paying compared to a used, but new condition, $3300 Liberty?

(Question: don't Used and New rebreathers do the same thing but one is $9000 more for extended battery life and a ODP).

If you Use a NEW rebreather, doesn't that make it USED? Except for commissions, all rebreathers will become used, right?

If the older Divesoft Units are unsafe, what changes has Divesoft made to the integrity of the new Units? (I know there was an electronics upgrade, but I think the deco algorithm is the same, just new comfort upgrades)

I am asking these questions while trying to understand the best price to list my DiveSoft Liberty CCR with FMCL?
Front mounted counterlungs and a radial scrubber are touted as the best WOB, right?


This unit has a Divesoft Classic Frame and a Divesoft travel Frame with Divesoft Wing. This unit also has a normal backplate with a cut out so the Divesoft Liberty locking mechanism can be accessed? This allows a DIR harness. I would be a foolish argument to say A DIR webbed harness is unsafe, especially when there is no chance that it could affect the loop or canister integrity. These are all mounted to a lightweight Divesoft travel frame.

This Unit has pre-2021 electronics, with Divesoft's latest update.

The Unit is in perfect condition, only 20 hours, with two helium sensors and two handsets with a Divesoft HUD. Holds a perfect Negative and Positive pressure.

Travis Kersting and Joe at Divesoft USA say that this unit will cost $5500 to upgrade.

Can someone on Scubaboard, that has experience on the pre 2021 and with post 2021 electronics Liberty answer why this upgrade is needed or makes the unit safe or unsafe?

Can someone explain to me why 2021 electronics changes the way this dives?

I know that the 2021 electronics offer Bluetooth, extended battery life and ODP connectivity, But I am not exactly sure why 2021 this costs $2200. Especially when it takes, $1700 to buy an ODP (Nerd like device) and $500 for Bluetooth transmitters to realize it's dive benefits. ($4400 for extended battery life and a large NERD?)

As rebreather diver myself, I do not spend a lot of time watching the air pressure gauges during the dive. I know what I start with and what I should expect to use, and it's usually pretty damn close. If I had a catastrophic air loss on the CCR, I would just off board from bail out.

Plus Analog gauges tell me my pressure just fine?

I have compared new units with this one, the loop is the same, the lungs are the same, the canister is the same, the scrubber is the same, the connectors are the same, the HUD itself works the same? My current batteries last for days and days.

I know so many people used to talk highly of these units, but I don't see that anymore. Just newbies asking if they should buy one.

Can someone in here help me out?

An interesting and timely thread seeing as I am starting the process to buy a Liberty at the moment (coming from a Poseidon Se7en)

In my case I am looking for one that was manufactured with the 2021 upgrades.

I was only vaguely aware of Brett's death, and didn't know the others, and didn't know that Liberty's were involved. Unfortunately people die on a wide variety of rebreathers semi-regularly without the cause ever being known - be it medical, the rebreather, or something else. Likewise people dive on OC semi-regularly too without knowing the cause.

To answer your questions -
1) I'm not aware of the price for annual service, I'm coming from a Poseidon where I'm pretty sure the service is annual as well and the system locks you out if it goes past that date. (it could be two years instead of annual - I'm not sure). Servicing costs is something that I will have to look into but would appreciate it if anyone can post some info here.
2) Like I said above - not a factor in my decision making, both because I didn't know about it and because I'm not into those extreme dives. It's kind of like driving a Toyota Corolla - if you drive it like 99% of the population then it is pretty safe - but if you try to lap Daytona absolutely flat out in it then there is a higher chance of it ending badly. I haven't seen anything that makes me think that a Liberty is unsafe - in general - or for the type of diving that I do.
3) Haven't heard of that, and if that were so then why haven't they been forced to issue a recall? Only thing I know is that Joe's technique for making youtube videos could improve a bit.
4) If the prices from Divesoft were unreasonable then that would scare people into buying JJ's etc wouldn't it?

If you have any links to Liberty's for sale on facebook marketplace I would be interested in seeing them as they don't show up down here in Australia. Looking for 2021 onwards Classic/Standard model with FMCL.

 

[RedSeaDiver2]

I do know that the Divesoft Liberty is one of the most complex rebreathers I have used. (Prism, inspiration, meg, revo, Divesoft)

Do the complexities make it more difficult or complex to dive though? Do they make it any easier to dive? Safer to dive?

 

[AJ]

Do the complexities make it more difficult or complex to dive though? Do they make it any easier to dive? Safer to dive?

Having looked into the Liberty very seriously next to the JJ (which I did buy), imo the Liberty helps the diver more than other units. It helps the diver a lot with electronics and software (checklists, monitoring, etc.).

The downside, which steared me away from the Liberty, was that all that tech (hard and soft) makes the unit less reliable than a more simple unit. I've spoken to a few Liberty divers who stated that they did have their share of issues. Nothing life threatning in any way, but mostly minor software glitches.

So in the end, the Liberty has capabilities (sidemount, heavy/light) that can not be found easily on onther units, but the software seems not to be as mature as Shearwater yet. At least, that's what I found investigating the unit.

In the end every unit in it's basis is good. The diver has to decide which unit fits him best.

 

[RedSeaDiver2]

Having looked into the Liberty very seriously next to the JJ (which I did buy), imo the Liberty helps the diver more than other units. It helps the diver a lot with electronics and software (checklists, monitoring, etc.).

The downside, which steared me away from the Liberty, was that all that tech (hard and soft) makes the unit less reliable than a more simple unit. I've spoken to a few Liberty divers who stated that they did have their share of issues. Nothing life threatning in any way, but mostly minor software glitches.

So in the end, the Liberty has capabilities (sidemount, heavy/light) that can not be found easily on onther units, but the software seems not to be as mature as Shearwater yet. At least, that's what I found investigating the unit.

In the end every unit in it's basis is good. The diver has to decide which unit fits him best.

I haven't seen anything in the Liberty that makes me think that the Liberty is less safe than a reVo, JJ, Inspo or Prism etc. While the systems do have some extra complexities in them, from what I can see they are just things that are operating away quietly in the background but don't add any task loading or cause any issues for the diver.

The other thing is we don't seem to be seeing any Liberty divers diving on regular bimbles to 50-60 metres on a reef wall or wreck - most have been dives to 120 metres + in caves, or 100 metre solo dives etc. There have been a couple with known causes that can't be blamed on the rebreather - entering the water with O2 cylinder turned off, or severe DCI after getting blown out of a cave.

Did the Liberty divers that you spoke to indicate that the software issues occurred in the water or during startup etc?

 

[j0rd1]

Adding my 2 cents as a Liberty Heavy 2021 owner.

I am curious to know what kind of software issues those divers reported. Combined with 2 other friends, we have above 400 hours on the Liberty (1 heavy, 2 sidemount), and I never had any software issue during a dive or pre-dive. Neither my friends, diving up to 60m.

Divesoft updates the software quite often, maybe 3 to 4 times a year (in the past 2 years). Maybe the software issues were reported in old units?

Regards,