Why do Used Divesoft Liberty's Lose so much value?

[Rodney H]

I have a Dive Soft Liberty CCR that I want to sell.

Can people on Scubaboard help me with setting a fair price?
I want the next diver to have a great deal and not feel as screwed as I feel.

It seems the high priced Liberty's just sit around forever on Facebook Market Place.

I see people who are trying to sell them at unbelievably low prices.

Why do used Divesoft Liberty Rebreathers lose their value so much more than other used rebreathers?


1. Is it the high cost of recommended maintenance and parts?
2. Is it low demand due to experienced divers Brent Hemphill, Han Ting and Axel Schoeller all dying on a Liberty rebreathers in 2023?
3. Is it that Divesoft USA tries to sell people a new rebreather and tells prospective inquisitors stories of their older units being unsafe?
4. Is it that Divesoft USA touts incredibly high prices to scare users into purchasing new rebreathers?
5. What makes the new $12,000 price tag worth paying compared to a used, but new condition, $3300 Liberty?

(Question: don't Used and New rebreathers do the same thing but one is $9000 more for extended battery life and a ODP).

If you Use a NEW rebreather, doesn't that make it USED? Except for commissions, all rebreathers will become used, right?

If the older Divesoft Units are unsafe, what changes has Divesoft made to the integrity of the new Units? (I know there was an electronics upgrade, but I think the deco algorithm is the same, just new comfort upgrades)

I am asking these questions while trying to understand the best price to list my DiveSoft Liberty CCR with FMCL?
Front mounted counterlungs and a radial scrubber are touted as the best WOB, right?


This unit has a Divesoft Classic Frame and a Divesoft travel Frame with Divesoft Wing. This unit also has a normal backplate with a cut out so the Divesoft Liberty locking mechanism can be accessed? This allows a DIR harness. I would be a foolish argument to say A DIR webbed harness is unsafe, especially when there is no chance that it could affect the loop or canister integrity. These are all mounted to a lightweight Divesoft travel frame.

This Unit has pre-2021 electronics, with Divesoft's latest update.

The Unit is in perfect condition, only 20 hours, with two helium sensors and two handsets with a Divesoft HUD. Holds a perfect Negative and Positive pressure.

Travis Kersting and Joe at Divesoft USA say that this unit will cost $5500 to upgrade.

Can someone on Scubaboard, that has experience on the pre 2021 and with post 2021 electronics Liberty answer why this upgrade is needed or makes the unit safe or unsafe?

Can someone explain to me why 2021 electronics changes the way this dives?

I know that the 2021 electronics offer Bluetooth, extended battery life and ODP connectivity, But I am not exactly sure why 2021 this costs $2200. Especially when it takes, $1700 to buy an ODP (Nerd like device) and $500 for Bluetooth transmitters to realize it's dive benefits. ($4400 for extended battery life and a large NERD?)

As rebreather diver myself, I do not spend a lot of time watching the air pressure gauges during the dive. I know what I start with and what I should expect to use, and it's usually pretty damn close. If I had a catastrophic air loss on the CCR, I would just off board from bail out.

Plus Analog gauges tell me my pressure just fine?

I have compared new units with this one, the loop is the same, the lungs are the same, the canister is the same, the scrubber is the same, the connectors are the same, the HUD itself works the same? My current batteries last for days and days.

I know so many people used to talk highly of these units, but I don't see that anymore. Just newbies asking if they should buy one.

Can someone in here help me out?

 

[phoque]

Well, I will be following the resulting discussion with high interest, despite not having concrete answers to the questions you bring forth. I am the guy who spoke with you directly about purchasing your unit yesterday but I guess the terms etc are up in the air now and a new price will shortly ensue, haha!
Anyway, I think by bluetooth here you mean wireless pressure transmitter capability. There is also bluetooth capability added in the 2021 electronics from reading the specs, separately, which seems to allow access to certain settings/data download to a phone or other device directly from the unit.

 

[Whitrzac]

Are they user serviceable?

Its a sign of the larger economy in general as well. People are much worse off now than they were 5-10-15 years ago.

 

[Josh the diver]

2021 upgrade also brought failed solenoid detection, GPS, and detection of water leakage in to electronics. for me I'm looking at buying one but I want the the 2021 upgrades. If I'm buying a pre-2021 unit, that is another 5500 I need to spend to upgrade, and I still want it to be cheaper then a new unit. They have also updated components to better improve them material wise and or design.

 

[Josh the diver]

Are they user serviceable?

Its a sign of the larger economy in general as well. People are much worse off now than they were 5-10-15 years ago.

most parts of the head are user changeable for what I am aware of. they still recommend yearly service.

 

[davehicks]

most parts of the head are user changeable for what I am aware of. they still recommend yearly service.

I can't fathom why anyone would want to use a rebreather that requires yearly factory service when there are many options that don't need much more than a good scrubbing and new o-rings every few years.

 

[mr_v]

@Rodney H, I don't know why Liberty prices are plummeting. Perhaps there are better alternatives. However, your second point is misplaced. The people you've mentioned perished during advanced dives that most CC folks aren't likely to perform (see Axle's Trilogy setup). Some may misread your statement and begin spinning FUD.

 

[Rodney H]

I can't fathom why anyone would want to use a rebreather that requires yearly factory service when there are many options that don't need much more than a good scrubbing and new o-rings every few years.

I agree!

 

[Rodney H]

@Rodney H, I don't know why Liberty prices are plummeting. Perhaps there are better alternatives. However, your second point is misplaced. The people you've mentioned perished during advanced dives that most CC folks aren't likely to perform (see Axle's Trilogy setup). Some may misread your statement and begin spinning FUD.

Hi, Mr V, thank you for your response. Perhaps there are better alternatives! Maybe you can help me understand about the second point, that point alone is a major factor for me and my pursuit of using Divesoft equipment has stopped. Maybe it is only me and the lack of my knowledge. I definitely don’t want this spinning. So please feel free to give me more insight.

Here is my reasoning: These guys were all proficient on there equipment, even thought of as experts, they all had more than one Divesoft Liberty for bailout, they all were doing advanced deep technical dives. I don’t believe any of these men would attempt dives of this caliber with malfunctioning units. Was Axel’s modifications unsafe? I don’t know, but I understand he had numerous dives on it.
Things I have read indicate that Axel may have had a heart attack or CO poisoning, but I have not heard for sure. Do you know?

The other two Brett, who was my inspiration for using Divesoft, has passed and I still don’t know what happened. Do you?

Han Ting, also an expert tech diver, died on the Liberty in October.

Yes all three were doing high level deep dives with proper training, planning and preparation. All three had mysterious accidents at depth. All three used identical brand CCR’S for bailing out.

This has left me with questions about the unit. Is it possible, that at depth, the problem that affected the primary CCR also affected the Bailout? I don’t know these things.

I do know that the Divesoft Liberty is one of the most complex rebreathers I have used. (Prism, inspiration, meg, revo, Divesoft)

Is it possible, that the issue that caused the failure of the primary CCR could cause the failure of the bailout CCR when exposed to the exact same conditions? ( for example piston regulators freezing under high use in cold water) Other questions, Were these WOB issues, were these equipment failures.
Please educate me, I don’t like wondering.

I have had many telephone conversations with Joe at Divesoft USA, who has spent a lot time telling me these units have many complexities that I as an “end user”should not attempt to maintain. The Divesoft Liberty can only be deemed safe if seen as a whole by a Divesoft technician. Granted, I believe Joe was trying to put fear into me to raise funds for Divesoft. But It is my belief that as an advanced CCR diver, I should know my own limits as this is the essential skill of remaining alive. When it comes to CCR diving I see that electronics are very complex, so I don’t touch them. But checking and maintaining the loop integrity should be the responsibility of the diver using the CCR. Help should be available if needed.

But, if I take the Divesoft representative at his word, and not following Divesofts recommendation and not showing it to a certified technician this is automatically deems or “implies unsafe.” Similar to a diver cleaning and servicing his or her own regulators without updated or current certifications.

Back to point #2, Three deaths of experts on the same units, additionally using the same units as bail out, in a five month period in 2023, along with warnings from Divesoft regarding the complexity of maintenance of these units have begun to strike a little terror in my heart. For me, this does not create confidence or value in the unit.

If this questioning is happening to me, how are others not questioning this? Or are they? If you or someone on scubaboard knows, please enlighten me.

I feel that prior to a dive, I am the best judge of the operational capability of my CCR, but have to assume the engineering of the device itself was adequate.

I always plan for the CCR failure, but I have not yet used two identical systems for bailing out.

 

[davehicks]

Hi, Mr V, thank you for your response. Perhaps there are better alternatives! Maybe you can help me understand about the second point, that point alone is a major factor for me and my pursuit of using Divesoft equipment has stopped. Maybe it is only me and the lack of my knowledge. I definitely don’t want this spinning. So please feel free to give me more insight.

Here is my reasoning: These guys were all proficient on there equipment, even thought of as experts, they all had more than one Divesoft Liberty for bailout, they all were doing advanced deep technical dives. I don’t believe any of these men would attempt dives of this caliber with malfunctioning units. Was Axel’s modifications unsafe? I don’t know, but I understand he had numerous dives on it.
Things I have read indicate that Axel may have had a heart attack or CO poisoning, but I have not heard for sure. Do you know?

The other two Brett, who was my inspiration for using Divesoft, has passed and I still don’t know what happened. Do you?

Han Ting, also an expert tech diver, died on the Liberty in October.

Yes all three were doing high level deep dives with proper training, planning and preparation. All three had mysterious accidents at depth. All three used identical brand CCR’S for bailing out.

This has left me with questions about the unit. Is it possible, that at depth, the problem that affected the primary CCR also affected the Bailout? I don’t know these things.

I do know that the Divesoft Liberty is one of the most complex rebreathers I have used. (Prism, inspiration, meg, revo, Divesoft)

Is it possible, that the issue that caused the failure of the primary CCR could cause the failure of the bailout CCR when exposed to the exact same conditions? ( for example piston regulators freezing under high use in cold water) Other questions, Were these WOB issues, were these equipment failures.
Please educate me, I don’t like wondering.

I have had many telephone conversations with Joe at Divesoft USA, who has spent a lot time telling me these units have many complexities that I as an “end user”should not attempt to maintain. The Divesoft Liberty can only be deemed safe if seen as a whole by a Divesoft technician. Granted, I believe Joe was trying to put fear into me to raise funds for Divesoft. But It is my belief that as an advanced CCR diver, I should know my own limits as this is the essential skill of remaining alive. When it comes to CCR diving I see that electronics are very complex, so I don’t touch them. But checking and maintaining the loop integrity should be the responsibility of the diver using the CCR. Help should be available if needed.

But, if I take the Divesoft representative at his word, and not following Divesofts recommendation and not showing it to a certified technician this is automatically deems or “implies unsafe.” Similar to a diver cleaning and servicing his or her own regulators without updated or current certifications.

Back to point #2, Three deaths of experts on the same units, additionally using the same units as bail out, in a five month period in 2023, along with warnings from Divesoft regarding the complexity of maintenance of these units have begun to strike a little terror in my heart. For me, this does not create confidence or value in the unit.

If this questioning is happening to me, how are others not questioning this? Or are they? If you or someone on scubaboard knows, please enlighten me.

I feel that prior to a dive, I am the best judge of the operational capability of my CCR, but have to assume the engineering of the device itself was adequate.

I always plan for the CCR failure, but I have not yet used two identical systems for bailing out.

If you have these concerns, you should take them seriously. Stop diving that unit and consider what type of dives you are doing and why. Reset and figure out what you truly enjoy about diving and focus on that, not the gear.