Thank heavens for PADI

[Krisscuba]

Just a Hunch Lawman,.....your job does not drug test!

Lawman,...why did you do you AOW with SSI after you did your OW with PADI?

Then again up their in Michigan,..the dive shops sell chain saws with really long blades to cut holes in the ice to dive. I hate it when I have to put on my 3mil shorty!

http://www.geocities.com/krisl_1999/bumper_sticker.html

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Mike has hit the nail on the head...both in describing the dive industry side of things AND the customer side of things.

What he sees in Indiana is exactly what I see in Arizona!

SA

 

[Dan Gibson]

I see a major flaw with this statement. The problem I have seen is that PADI does in fact allow this sort of thing and either they ignore it or are too ignorant to the fact that it happens. Yes, there are some good instructors, but there are far to many who don't have the slightest clues what the standards are or how to dive.

Examples:
4 minute dives for dive one in OW.
Not knowing the difference between the terms buddy breathing and sharing air.
Thinking that ones own AirII is a redundant source.
Having DMs do demos before the instructor does it.
Rescue classes where you tank pull someone 10 feet and are told "ok, you get the picture"
and on and on and on....

This was all from a shop where the head culprit is a Course Director. Thankfully he is no longer here. Florida now gets to put up with his less than mediocre teaching behavior. However, we still have some of his instructors here and they are no better.

btw,
My favorite example is PADI Sport Diver. Last year they has some instructor explain the OOA. He actually had it descibed that you interlock left arms. That is completely wrong. How in the heck to you control buoyancy without the use of the left arm. The correct way would be to use the right arm for hanging onto the OOA diver. (The real correct way is for each diver to control their own buoyancy and not be hanging onto each other, but that is another argument.)


I contend that PADI either is so out of touch with what is actually going on or they are denying that it takes place.

divemed06 once bubbled...
If PADI was to allow instructors to basically teach any which way they want. they would open themselves up to messy lawsuits. It's imparative for such a large corporation (and yes PADI is a corporation), to set reasonable standards and ensure that their representatives (ie. Instructors) follow these standards.

 

[Falcon99]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


Combine that fact with the fact that most dives are canned resort dives.

You all have endured my long-winded posts enough, so this will be kept short, but pertinant to that quote.

I was REALLY shocked to see and hear some really stupid things in Cozumel, besides the fact of getting a guilt trip by fellow divers for paying close attention to my computer's N2 saturation graph.(reference the "your computer is too conservative" comment from an earlier post) "Trust me, see the DM is buddy breathing, he knows what he's doing.." (this actually happened as well!)

We also had a guy admit to us on the boat he had both congestive heart failure and type II diabetes to boot.

The point is that the diving instructor and LDS owner community has some major problems...

Do you all understand why I got mad at one of these "types" telling me I was forbidden to dive to 90 feet, regardless of how careful my partner and I were - because I didn't take the advanced class?

Why the hell do you give me non-decompression tables that go to 100 feet in the green if I am "forbidden" to dive it?

In flight training, they told me not to fly past 145 knots IAS in the trainier. They taught it, and everyone stuck to it. I didn't hear my instructor say "OK, we're out of the departure pattern now, let's take this mother straight down, full throttle. Don't worry about that airspeed, the guage is too conservative. Trust me.."

Do you all see my point here?

James

 

[TCDiver1]

Whirling Girl once bubbled...
I think they were teaching what they were told they were supposed to teach, and what they were told was safe. I am starting to disagree.

I have not taken 'Deep Specialty' training. Have you? What do they teach you in that specialty? How much class time do you spend? What do you learn about narcosis and PPO2 and all that stuff that's different?

Do you believe that, after taking 'Deep Specialty' training, a diver is safe to dive to 130 feet on air?

I'm not trying to put you on the spot. Honestly. I just want to know what you think.

Margaret

WG,
I gave you what PADI recommends in their standards for depth limits, for the various cert levels. PADI did not tell your instructor he/she had to take you to 110' to 130' for your AOW deep dive. In fact, the standards set a 100' depth limit maximum for the PADI AOW deep dive. The same standards only require that your taken below the 60' depth for that dive. How close students are taken to 100' is left to instructor judgement. Not unreasonable IMO considering how variable conditions can be from say; Puget Sound or my home diving of the great lakes to Cozumel.

As far as my deep training and what i believe about going to 130' on air, i'm sure my opinion is worthless to you since your mind is apparently made up. Suffice it to say, if you feel you were narced out of your mind at any given depth, IMO it would be in your best interest to not go that deep under those conditions again without first lowering your ppN2.

Not everyone is the same, psychologically, or physiologically. I have found narcosis to be variable (that is variable from dive to dive and day to day for the same diver) and subtle in nature. Its like drunk driving, many people swear they drive better or at least as good as when they have had a drink or two. Not true for any of us. Although some people do handle their booze better than others. Such is the nature of narcosis from my experience.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

"I really do believe some of you put way to much weight on the agency and the instructors.. They can only do so much, IMHO its the student who is going to take the information and apply it.. If the student just wants a card then no matter how hard you try its not going to make a difference.. A good student must take the skills he/she has learned and practice, practice, practice.."

-- Blue Space --


Brandon, makes a good point. Sorta like the old saying You can lead a horse to water but you can't make 'em drink.

There's not much more rewarding than getting a student that is serious about diving, comes to class prepared, is eager to learn, and is willing to put forth the effort to master the skills of better diving.

But in the PADI system P = C card. This is one reason that I no longer teach for my shop. As an independant I can choose who I take on as a student. If I think that they are only after the card and not interested in learning how to dive I can direct them elsewhere.

SA

 

[TCDiver1]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Why is it that so many want to use the number of deaths or lack of them to validate our training system. That seems valid only if our definition of good training is that which doesn't result in injury or death. I think we need another definition. My first dives were in Lake Norfork Arkansas solo with a spear gun and ZERO prior instruction. I had a way of breathing so I didn't die or even come close. Should I propose that as a valid certification process. LOL

your example above is the same as expecting a beginning OW diver, fresh from OW class, to have the trim and depth control of a seasoned cave diver. Okay, its not as funny as your example but you get my point.

There is a big difference between a seasoned cave diver and a freshly certified OW diver ....IMO lots of skill level room between these two examples don't you agree? Are you a better or worse cave diver than you were when you first certified in cave?

Death and injury are typical ways to evaluate the safety of any activity or sport. How else would you evaluate it?

Ps: I got my stuff yesterday, it looks sweet. Thanks again and i'll let you know how it works once i figure out how to rig the lights to my housing.

 

[-hh]

Whirling Girl once bubbled...
I have two words left regarding PADI that sort of sums up the way I feel about the level of safety that PADI chooses to teach:

DEEP. AIR.

I was at 90 feet tonight on air for 10 minutes and I was narced out of my mind. It's GUE Recreational Triox for me as soon as they are teaching one in Seattle.

Egads. This is the wrong solultion WGirl, unless you're one of the 1%'ers who get Narc'ed every time you go down.

The reason why is because impairment via Narcosis is a risk. It can happen on virtually any dive, at almost literally any depth.

As such, blowing a bunch of money to go to Triox so that you keep your MOD at less than 80fsw isn't going to magically eliminate the Narcosis Risk for you.

But you have inspired me to submit a poll: "What's the shallowest that you've gotten Narc'ed?"

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33766


-hh

 

[MikeFerrara]

gedunk once bubbled...


your example above is the same as expecting a beginning OW diver, fresh from OW class, to have the trim and depth control of a seasoned cave diver. Okay, its not as funny as your example but you get my point.

There is a big difference between a seasoned cave diver and a freshly certified OW diver ....IMO lots of skill level room between these two examples don't you agree? Are you a better or worse cave diver than you were when you first certified in cave?

I'm not really suggesting that we compare seasoned cave divers to new OW divers. Although sump divers are often forced to crawl in the bottom. Sometimes they even walk (even without fins). I do think they should stop teaching sump diving techniques to OW divers because they're not ready for it. LOL

I am a better cave diver now than I was when I started becuase I've gained experience. However on the day I finished the class I was able to run a line without getting me or some one else all tangled up and without messing up the cave. I am faster at looking at a section of cave and choosing line placement than I was in the beginning but before I got my ticket I still had to demonstrate that I could place a line correctly and knew the difference.

Death and injury are typical ways to evaluate the safety of any activity or sport. How else would you evaluate it?

How about we stick to the existing definition of mastery that's currently in the standards. I think that page is often ignored. I think there's more to it than safety. Just because you don't die doesn't mean that you're diving well. You should see me golf. I don't get hurt though. If lack of injuries is the only criteria I think we can lower standards a little more. Of course we might beef up the supervision at the resorts. I am confident, however, that we can keep the casualties to a minimum.

Ps: I got my stuff yesterday, it looks sweet. Thanks again and i'll let you know how it works once i figure out how to rig the lights to my housing.

Glad you got it that's a relief. I get nervous with that kind of stuff in the mail.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Stephen Ash once bubbled...
[BAs an independant I can choose who I take on as a student. If I think that they are only after the card and not interested in learning how to dive I can direct them elsewhere.

SA [/B]

That's where I'm at. I opened a shop because I didn't like teaching for the other shop in the area. Then I found out I didn't even like teaching for my own. It's bad when you can't even work for yourself. LOL