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Product Review: New Generation 2 BARE SB Drysuit
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OP
Deep South Divers
Contributor
OP
Deep South Divers
Contributor
OP
Deep South Divers
Contributor
Here's an answer to the question I'd posed about the neoprene fabric. From the owner's manual, BARE states:
Based on the position of this description in the manual, it appears that BARE considers this "hyper-compressed neoprene" to be their top drysuit fabric.
The most similar drysuit on the market is clearly the DUI CF200, which is made using 3mm standard neoprene, then crushed in a hyperbaric chamber after being assembled. Here's owner Susan Long talking about the proprietary process:
This mirrors exactly what I see in person: The DUI CF200 sample appears to be about 1mm thick, and we know it is negative in freshwater. The BARE XCS2 appears to be 2mm thick, and I'm hoping for the same. Based on what I see, it's entirely possible.
It's tough to tell which is stretchier... They both stretch A LOT - and more than the BARE SB did.
I just hope that the XCS2 is also negative in freshwater.
Based on the position of this description in the manual, it appears that BARE considers this "hyper-compressed neoprene" to be their top drysuit fabric.
The most similar drysuit on the market is clearly the DUI CF200, which is made using 3mm standard neoprene, then crushed in a hyperbaric chamber after being assembled. Here's owner Susan Long talking about the proprietary process:
This mirrors exactly what I see in person: The DUI CF200 sample appears to be about 1mm thick, and we know it is negative in freshwater. The BARE XCS2 appears to be 2mm thick, and I'm hoping for the same. Based on what I see, it's entirely possible.
It's tough to tell which is stretchier... They both stretch A LOT - and more than the BARE SB did.
I just hope that the XCS2 is also negative in freshwater.
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OP
Deep South Divers
Contributor
OP
Deep South Divers
Contributor
Wow, great review series, Seajay. The XCS2 is still at the top of my list to eventually replace my Fusion. I had hoped to see one at the LA Scuba Show, but Bare only brought the D6 for neoprene offerings. Your review probably tells me more than actually seeing the suit.
Waiting to hear your evaluation of the buoyancy. Also interested to know if the 2mm compressed neoprene provides any noticeable thermal insulation over and above a shell suit. A friend of mine dives a Scubapro 4mm neoprene drysuit and he finds a very thin undergarment is sufficient. It seems like the tradeoff for the extra weight of the suit ought to be in thermal insulation.
Enjoy your new suit!
Waiting to hear your evaluation of the buoyancy. Also interested to know if the 2mm compressed neoprene provides any noticeable thermal insulation over and above a shell suit. A friend of mine dives a Scubapro 4mm neoprene drysuit and he finds a very thin undergarment is sufficient. It seems like the tradeoff for the extra weight of the suit ought to be in thermal insulation.
Enjoy your new suit!
OP
Deep South Divers
Contributor
Thanks my friend!
So far, the XCS2 has exceeded my expectations and met my hopes. I'm real happy with it and hope that she dives as good as she looks.
The benchmark in weighting for me is:
3mm full wetsuit and hood
Salt water
SS backplate and STA
Single AL80
I wear a pair of 3lb weights right on my harness (nonditchable).
In freshwater, I can ditch the 3lb weights which is fantastically freeing... But I'm usually back to diving salt the next day (I have clients in both salt and freshwater), so usually I find myself not bothering and just going ahead and diving 6lbs overweighted in freshwater. Lazy.
Anyway, my BARE SB hit this benchmark with the SB base layer or FourthE Xerotherm or Drybase as the undergarment, which was good for me down to about 60° water in that trilaminate suit.
...Which meant that in all water from 60° to 90°, I was weighted the same - which was super convenient... And always very flexible.
This XCS2 might possibly not only hit this benchmark, but exceed it. I can tell you that a DUI CF200 would, and I believe the fabric to be very similar.
If so, it'll mean that I'll be weighted the same from 50° or 55° to 90° exactly the same... With no loss in comfort or flexibility due to inherent stretch in the suit. If that's the case, I'll probably switch over to Faber HP80 tanks (6lbs more negative than AL80's) and ditch all of the lead... But switch to an AL backplate (5lbs less negative than my SS backplates - close enough) when I dive freshwater.
That'll make temperatures more tolerable, my rig will lose 1/3 it's weight topside, and be more streamlined and compact than ever. No joke - it'd revolutionize my career.
...And I might never have to stand under a garden hose in a bathing suit in February again.
So far, the XCS2 has exceeded my expectations and met my hopes. I'm real happy with it and hope that she dives as good as she looks.
The benchmark in weighting for me is:
3mm full wetsuit and hood
Salt water
SS backplate and STA
Single AL80
I wear a pair of 3lb weights right on my harness (nonditchable).
In freshwater, I can ditch the 3lb weights which is fantastically freeing... But I'm usually back to diving salt the next day (I have clients in both salt and freshwater), so usually I find myself not bothering and just going ahead and diving 6lbs overweighted in freshwater. Lazy.
Anyway, my BARE SB hit this benchmark with the SB base layer or FourthE Xerotherm or Drybase as the undergarment, which was good for me down to about 60° water in that trilaminate suit.
...Which meant that in all water from 60° to 90°, I was weighted the same - which was super convenient... And always very flexible.
This XCS2 might possibly not only hit this benchmark, but exceed it. I can tell you that a DUI CF200 would, and I believe the fabric to be very similar.
If so, it'll mean that I'll be weighted the same from 50° or 55° to 90° exactly the same... With no loss in comfort or flexibility due to inherent stretch in the suit. If that's the case, I'll probably switch over to Faber HP80 tanks (6lbs more negative than AL80's) and ditch all of the lead... But switch to an AL backplate (5lbs less negative than my SS backplates - close enough) when I dive freshwater.
That'll make temperatures more tolerable, my rig will lose 1/3 it's weight topside, and be more streamlined and compact than ever. No joke - it'd revolutionize my career.
...And I might never have to stand under a garden hose in a bathing suit in February again.
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reefvagabond
Contributor
Glad the Bare XCS2 seems to be working out for you. I ended up getting a Bare X-Mission which worked out well for me but would probably get sliced up on a working dive. I think the SB material was much more abrasion resistant than the X-Mission's nylon.
This might be a bit late but did you ever consider the Hollis FX100 drysuity? It is stretchy, but not breathable. The outer material seems fairly durable, especially for a trilam. I don't think they made a model with a plastic zipper, the dump valve position looks bad, and the socks are no where near Bare's neoprene socks. But it could possibly work for your situation as well.
This might be a bit late but did you ever consider the Hollis FX100 drysuity? It is stretchy, but not breathable. The outer material seems fairly durable, especially for a trilam. I don't think they made a model with a plastic zipper, the dump valve position looks bad, and the socks are no where near Bare's neoprene socks. But it could possibly work for your situation as well.
OP
Deep South Divers
Contributor
Nope. I wasn't even aware that any other manufacturer had a stretchable membrane suit.
Perhaps Hollis would like to send us one so we can put it through some paces.
My initial thoughts:
1. BARE claimed their SB to be "stretchable and breathable." Yes, it was stretchy, but after 300 dives I still could not tell you if it was, in fact, breathable. No, it never "fizzed," not even inflated... And the video I posted while looking for leaks (it was filled with air and pressurized) should have shown any "breathable" characteristics. The claim is bogus, if you ask me. I never found it to migrate air through the fabric in either direction - until it delaminated at the seams, of course... Then EVERYTHING migrated through it.
Yes, it stretched... Quite a bit... Which I believe was it's downfall. No, it didn't stretch as much as neoprene. For stretch, neoprene is still king... And with these "hyper-compressed" (BARE) or "crushed" (DUI) neoprenes having either zero or less than zero (!) buoyancy, I don't see a logical reason why to consider a trilaminate suit at all... Except maybe that they pack maybe 5lbs lighter - which might be a small advantage on an airplane.
The fact that Hollis does not claim that their FX100 is "breathable" doesn't surprise me. I don't think that BARE's really was either. I believe it was "marketing-speak."
The reason why they'd be so comfortable on the suface is simply because they're so lightweight and stretchy.
2. The BARE SB and the Hollis FX100 share that the waterproof part of their fabric is a stretchable polyurethane. I suspect that the problem with delamination that occurs in one suit will occur also in the other.
3. Hollis is an interesting company with interesting entries in the market. We LOVE their M1 mask and would be using it instead of a GoMask if we could get lights and cameras to attach to it. Their F1 fins are stellar, too, and have replaced our Scubapro Jets due to the better, more comfortable foot pocket that is much easier to wear for several hours at a shot. They're like a modern interpretation of the Jet fin, and the fact that they come with a 3-way adjustable spring heel (instead of having to add an aftermarket one that's not adjustable) is brilliant.
Should their FX100 be similar in philosophy, it'd be a great thing.
4. The Hollis FX100 appears to lack an internal fabric layer, making it a bilaminate fabric rather than a trilaminate fabric. This may help with delamination at the seams, but possibly at the sacrifice of easy sliding for donning and doffing. I'd be interested to try it out.
5. No plastic zip option (either TiZip or YKK) is missing one of the greatest drysuit innovations over the past few years, in my opinion. But that opinion isn't shared by everyone in the drysuit business, apparently - as the DUI CF200 isn't offered with a plastic zip option either. I think it should be available in all suits and would be disappointed to not have it if I owned an FX100.
6. I don't believe that the odd position of the shoulder dump would bother me. In fact, I might prefer it. Why do others like the "normal" bicep mount? I kinda find it gets in the way when doffing and have to be very careful.
7. Sock/overboot ("Rock Boot") option only would frustrate me. I much prefer a built-in boot with a deck sole for wet boat decks and docks. I like the faster don/doff and smaller profile for fins. Further, I'm not a fan of the propensity for puncture when walking around topside with the boots off. Just asking for a puncture, IMHO.
To me, the DUI Turbosole is the best drysuit boot made... But the SiTech flexible neoprene boot available in the BARE and SANTI suits is very good as well, and possibly more durable than the DUI Turbosole.
8. In looking at the Hollis lineup, I see a LOT of velcro being used in a lot of places that a zipper would work better - especially in pockets and over the entry zipper. Velcro has a short life expectancy in our line of work due to silt, sediment, and biomass in the water. In fact, some of us even cut the ankle straps off of our drysuits, as they get crudded up pretty quickly anyway.
9. What's with the top-of-thigh mounted pockets on some Hollis drysuits? That's a horrible place for pockets unless you're sitting - like in a pilot's fligbt suit or something... But in a drysuit, they work best in the slipstream of your armpits. They're also easier to access in their standard side position.
10. Internal D-rings in pockets are DIR-standard and great in caving. They work well for clipping off spools, lift bags and hand tools... But they get in the way of spare masks, wet notes, slates, non-snapped tools and spare parts during working dives. We cut them out of our suits so they don't cause an accidental drop.
Hollis pockets have internal D-rings. BARE pockets do not.
Some aftermarket pockets use a bungee loop rather than a D-ring, which seems less obtrusive when you're not using it. If I designed a pocket, that's probably what I'd use as a compromise between the two philosophies... But we'd probably cut them out, too, the first time it caused us to drop a bolt to a line cutter or whatever and had to go looking for it.
...Hollis, are you listening? Send me an FX100 so I can review it.
Perhaps Hollis would like to send us one so we can put it through some paces.
My initial thoughts:
1. BARE claimed their SB to be "stretchable and breathable." Yes, it was stretchy, but after 300 dives I still could not tell you if it was, in fact, breathable. No, it never "fizzed," not even inflated... And the video I posted while looking for leaks (it was filled with air and pressurized) should have shown any "breathable" characteristics. The claim is bogus, if you ask me. I never found it to migrate air through the fabric in either direction - until it delaminated at the seams, of course... Then EVERYTHING migrated through it.
Yes, it stretched... Quite a bit... Which I believe was it's downfall. No, it didn't stretch as much as neoprene. For stretch, neoprene is still king... And with these "hyper-compressed" (BARE) or "crushed" (DUI) neoprenes having either zero or less than zero (!) buoyancy, I don't see a logical reason why to consider a trilaminate suit at all... Except maybe that they pack maybe 5lbs lighter - which might be a small advantage on an airplane.
The fact that Hollis does not claim that their FX100 is "breathable" doesn't surprise me. I don't think that BARE's really was either. I believe it was "marketing-speak."
The reason why they'd be so comfortable on the suface is simply because they're so lightweight and stretchy.
2. The BARE SB and the Hollis FX100 share that the waterproof part of their fabric is a stretchable polyurethane. I suspect that the problem with delamination that occurs in one suit will occur also in the other.
3. Hollis is an interesting company with interesting entries in the market. We LOVE their M1 mask and would be using it instead of a GoMask if we could get lights and cameras to attach to it. Their F1 fins are stellar, too, and have replaced our Scubapro Jets due to the better, more comfortable foot pocket that is much easier to wear for several hours at a shot. They're like a modern interpretation of the Jet fin, and the fact that they come with a 3-way adjustable spring heel (instead of having to add an aftermarket one that's not adjustable) is brilliant.
Should their FX100 be similar in philosophy, it'd be a great thing.
4. The Hollis FX100 appears to lack an internal fabric layer, making it a bilaminate fabric rather than a trilaminate fabric. This may help with delamination at the seams, but possibly at the sacrifice of easy sliding for donning and doffing. I'd be interested to try it out.
5. No plastic zip option (either TiZip or YKK) is missing one of the greatest drysuit innovations over the past few years, in my opinion. But that opinion isn't shared by everyone in the drysuit business, apparently - as the DUI CF200 isn't offered with a plastic zip option either. I think it should be available in all suits and would be disappointed to not have it if I owned an FX100.
6. I don't believe that the odd position of the shoulder dump would bother me. In fact, I might prefer it. Why do others like the "normal" bicep mount? I kinda find it gets in the way when doffing and have to be very careful.
7. Sock/overboot ("Rock Boot") option only would frustrate me. I much prefer a built-in boot with a deck sole for wet boat decks and docks. I like the faster don/doff and smaller profile for fins. Further, I'm not a fan of the propensity for puncture when walking around topside with the boots off. Just asking for a puncture, IMHO.
To me, the DUI Turbosole is the best drysuit boot made... But the SiTech flexible neoprene boot available in the BARE and SANTI suits is very good as well, and possibly more durable than the DUI Turbosole.
8. In looking at the Hollis lineup, I see a LOT of velcro being used in a lot of places that a zipper would work better - especially in pockets and over the entry zipper. Velcro has a short life expectancy in our line of work due to silt, sediment, and biomass in the water. In fact, some of us even cut the ankle straps off of our drysuits, as they get crudded up pretty quickly anyway.
9. What's with the top-of-thigh mounted pockets on some Hollis drysuits? That's a horrible place for pockets unless you're sitting - like in a pilot's fligbt suit or something... But in a drysuit, they work best in the slipstream of your armpits. They're also easier to access in their standard side position.
10. Internal D-rings in pockets are DIR-standard and great in caving. They work well for clipping off spools, lift bags and hand tools... But they get in the way of spare masks, wet notes, slates, non-snapped tools and spare parts during working dives. We cut them out of our suits so they don't cause an accidental drop.
Hollis pockets have internal D-rings. BARE pockets do not.
Some aftermarket pockets use a bungee loop rather than a D-ring, which seems less obtrusive when you're not using it. If I designed a pocket, that's probably what I'd use as a compromise between the two philosophies... But we'd probably cut them out, too, the first time it caused us to drop a bolt to a line cutter or whatever and had to go looking for it.
...Hollis, are you listening? Send me an FX100 so I can review it.
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