Thank heavens for PADI

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

“Well, its not rocket science. Given all the crazy things you’ve seen divers do, how often do you see 'em get hurt? Zero!”

“Yah, some newly certified divers look horrible and some are accidents waiting to happen, but they come back, get more training and continue to dive and improve. Most of the new certs that are dangerous have enough sense to know it. They’ll stick with us (diving with the shop as customers) until they're safer and more confident.”

These are a couple of things that I often hear from other well meaning instructors. None sound good and you can make endless arguments that will point out how ridiculous these things are. But it’s weird that in the real world of diving how often they hold true (at least in my experience).

The typical newly certified divers that I see are generally “safe” and aren’t particularly anxious, apprehensive, inept, or stupid – although some certainly are. And, of course, these few are the ones that consume most of the energy of the staff. The new certs that I worry about are the ones that have an unsafe attitude, are physically unfit to dive, or are just simply uncomfortable in the water.

This, I think, points out another weakness in the PADI program. I suspect that PADI obligates its instructors to certify ALL students who satisfactorily perform all of the performance requirements because it helps shift the liability from the instructor to the agency. (Although I’m sure some would argue that this is done because of financial considerations, I would disagree.) This also serves to limit the subjective approval of the instructor decreasing possible conflicts over who gets and who doesn’t get certified. But this allows the possibility for the instructor to certify students that he or she feels may be unsafe.

And as a result I often hear this;

“There are a few divers that I’ve certified that I know are gonna kill themselves but I’ve followed all the PADI standards and they have performed all the requirements satisfactorily. I had to cert them. PADI says so.”

SA
 
gedunk,

"However, a good number of them were very experienced divers."

Thanks for proving my point. You need that basic foundation in the OW class. Unless you go back to the pool and learn those skills usually left out, you are always very close to panic. Experience diving doesn't make up for basics missed.
 
Diversauras once bubbled...


If your post to Whirling Girl's query were to be taken literally than you are saying that there are no shops turning out adequate student divers. I think the majority of LDSs out in the real world do a good job and that the instructors or shops that turn out bad / dangerous novice divers are few. Certainly there are some and they do get most of the press, but if it was as bad as you indicate there would be diving accidents and deaths at a much higher rate.

Well, the ones I see are pretty bad. No...terrible. They get away with it because the consumer doesn't have anything to compare.

Would it really result in lots of accidents? At certain local sites we do see a disproportionatley high number of accidents. Laguna Beach? (sp?) what do they average? Last I heard it was more than one per month. However on the whole, I think most dives are being done under some supervision where the dive is preplanned for you and maybe even comes with in-water supervision. I think that if these new divers were off really diving on their own they wouldn't stand a very good chance at all. Check out what they get themselves into at places like Gilboa where a few every year get hauled out in an ambulance because of silly things like free flows that result in a rapid ascent.

I see silly close calls every weekend at the local bathtub sized quarry. Just two weeks ago I had a class interupted ny two divers that had to lay down and rest on the platform we were using. A third diver who had been seperated WALKED up and rested for a minute with them. The all nervously exchanged ok's and WALKED off together. My class hovered above watching. I tried to find out what the problem was but I don't think they ever knew any of us were there.

Last week we found a lone diver standing on the bottom like he was waiting for a bus. Finally a couple of divers dredged their way to him and they all floundered off together leaving a trench in the mud as they went. This isn't once in a while I see this stuff. It's every time out. Every single time.

So yes, most of them live but that is no indication of the quality of training. The fact is you could strap on gear and head streight out to OW and likely live through it. BTW, that's how I started.
 
Whirling Girl once bubbled...
So, my AOW dives were dives #12-17, I think.

There was no classroom discussion in AOW, it was just five dives. My PADI "deep" dive was to 130 feet, on air. We went down, we kneeled on the bottom, I tried to write my name, address, depth and time on my slate, and we left.

After that, I was officially blessed to go that deep on air.

That, in my opinion, was inadequate training.

That mirrors my AOW experience almost exactly, and I couldn't agree more. I remember blowing bubbles from the bottom of the quarry, and watching them disappear from sight without seeing them break the surface. In my mildly narced state it seemed surreal. It was almost two years before I felt comfortable venturing down to that depth again.

IMHO the best way to offset the effects of Narcosis is through repetition of skills until they become second nature. I think I would have gotten more out of my AOW if I had waited a year before taking it.


Scott
 
Whirling Girl once bubbled...


PADI does train divers to think that they can go to 120 ft. in 40 degree water when they are fresh out of OW class.


PADI recommends new OW divers dive only depths and conditions similar to what they got their training in. In addition they recommend absolute maximums of 60/100/130 respectively for OW/AOW/Deep specialty training levels.

Your instructor may have taken you to 130' for your AOW deep dive. I take my AOW students to 70 to 80' max. for their deep dive.

A better statement for you to have made would have been: your PADI instructor believes he/she can take you directly to 130' right after OW certification. Most instructors i know, PADI or not, would not do that. Especially in cold, low vis water.
 
Just curious...(briefly)what are NAUI and SSI's guidelines for the AOW certification? Are they not similar to PADI's?
Thanks...
 
Walter once bubbled...
gedunk,

"However, a good number of them were very experienced divers."

Thanks for proving my point. You need that basic foundation in the OW class. Unless you go back to the pool and learn those skills usually left out, you are always very close to panic. Experience diving doesn't make up for basics missed.

Nice twist on my words Walter. Not what i was trying to say but i can agree with what your saying. I was saying that "merde happens" to the best laid plans and it can and will happen to most of us due to our human nature to overlook things and make mistakes.

I agreed with you because training can minimize this sort of thing. It does not IMO, stop it completely. Therefore it is logical to assume some percentage of the accidents that do occur, would happen regardless of quality of training.
 
gedunk once bubbled...
PADI recommends new OW divers dive only depths and conditions similar to what they got their training in. In addition they recommend absolute maximums of 60/100/130 respectively for OW/AOW/Deep specialty training levels.

Your instructor may have taken you to 130' for your AOW deep dive. I take my AOW students to 70 to 80' max. for their deep dive.

A better statement for you to have made would have been: your PADI instructor believes he/she can take you directly to 130' right after OW certification. Most instructors i know, PADI or not, would not do that. Especially in cold, low vis water.
Well, all water in Puget Sound is cold, low vis water.

And let me correct myself, I can't actually remember if it was 130'. It was somewhere between 110' and 130'. My instructors, as I have said many times, were very good and I like them alot. I think they were teaching what they were told they were supposed to teach, and what they were told was safe. I am starting to disagree.

I have not taken 'Deep Specialty' training. Have you? What do they teach you in that specialty? How much class time do you spend? What do you learn about narcosis and PPO2 and all that stuff that's different?

Do you believe that, after taking 'Deep Specialty' training, a diver is safe to dive to 130 feet on air?

I'm not trying to put you on the spot. Honestly. I just want to know what you think.

Margaret
 
Whirling Girl once bubbled...

diverbrian, I'm not trying to take your quote out of context, and I appreciated your comments, but I wanted to respond to this specifically.

PADI does train divers to think that they can go to 120 ft. in 40 degree water when they are fresh out of OW class.

I took PADI AOW right after my OW class, and was urged to do so by my instructors. I decided to take AOW not because I thought it would make me an advanced diver, but because I didn't think I was safe to dive without an instructor yet. (I did a few dives, actually, and made some really stupid mistakes, so I had a basis for the opinion).

So, my AOW dives were dives #12-17, I think.

There was no classroom discussion in AOW, it was just five dives. My PADI "deep" dive was to 130 feet, on air. We went down, we kneeled on the bottom, I tried to write my name, address, depth and time on my slate, and we left.

After that, I was officially blessed to go that deep on air.

That, in my opinion, was inadequate training, but I digress.

The divers you object to, are not objected to by PADI.

Margaret

PADI, of course, does not "train divers to think that they can go to 120 ft. in 40 degree water when they are fresh out of OW class." PADI OW certification qualifies divers to dive within the limits of their training. That would be no deeper than 60 feet and in similar conditions under which they were trained.
( perhaps yet anothre flaw in PADI's system.)

Likewise, if you went to 130 ft on air in your PADI AOW your instructor was violating PADI standards. The maximum allowable depth for any "adventure dive" is 100 feet and for juniors 70 feet is the limit.

I hate seeing PADI blamed for things they are not responsible for. PADI takes enough heat as it is.

"After that, I was officially blessed to go that deep on air. "

This, unfortunately, underscores how poorly the AOW class serves the student.

SA
 
Whirling Girl once bubbled...
That sounds like, to some degree, a diveshop owner has strong disincentives to increase the cost or improve the standards of the training they offer. Of course, a nearby shop could quote prices that are lower and training that is shorter, and thereby steal your students. But since the agencies (or at least some of them, including the largest one, apparently) have arguably lower standards than a) they did in the past and b) than they should now, they don't help a dive instructor who wants to teach or offer a better course.

Customers come in looking for a card. When all the shops are selling the same one, the shop with the lowest price and the most convenient (short) schedule wins. There is zero incentive to provide better training because the price is essentially fixed and the real product is the card. If there were two McDonalds next to each other and one claimed to have a better big mac but charged more and made you wait longer for it would you buy it knowing that McDonalds had predefined what a Big Mac is to be?
I hadn't thought before that if the agencies raised the bar, that could help dive shops make diving education less of a 'loss leader' and more of a valuable service for which the shops and instructors are fairly compensated. Or at least so that they don't LOSE money.

Fairly compensate instructors? I have about 40 hours in an OW class. Also there are pool costs, travel costs, equipment that I own and need to amertize, insurance, Agency fees, books, my agency membership, the cost of assistants and other fixed costs associated with just having a building. For this to be a profit center it would be a $1500 class unless you want to have huge classes. Sorry the only reason to teach OW is to sell fins and advanced classes and to aquire new customers. In some areas you'll see price wars where shops are even willing to give OW certification for free just to get people into their shop.
Are you saying that the manufacturers force you to buy stuff that you don't want to sell? So, let's say I'm a dive shop owner, and I want to sell scubapro jetfins, because I like them, but I don't want to sell scubapro bc's, because I think they suck. I would have to buy their bc's anyway? And have them collect dust, or compromise my values and try to sell them to my customers when I don't think they're safe or good quality?

That doesn't seem fair. Am I being terribly naive?

Margaret [/B]

That's exactly what I'm saying. If I wanted to sell sp jet fins because I liked them and thought my student should have access to them I would have to write an $18,000 check to sp. The require that you carry their entire line and yes even if you think it's junk. Of course they're not going to come in and check your stock (well they usually do once a year or so) but by requireing the huge opening orders and anual sales minimums they sure create huge incentives for you to push their entire line. All the big manufacturers do business the very same way. BTW, I don't use or sell jet fins or anything else from scubapro nor will I ever. Often a sales rep will even partially base his decision whether or not to take you on as a dealer on what other lines you carry. I have had reps come in the door and come right out and tell me that I had too much of some other brand and my sales of their stuff was too low and threaten to pull my dealership.

I recently posted about an incedent we had with cressi. We been dealers for a couple years now. They only required like a $3500 (don't remember exactly) opening order BTW. Anyway All we really sold was some of their masks and fins. We had a customer want a mask in a color we didn't have so we ordered it. However, when we called to order the mask we were told that the only way they would place an order for us was if we spent $1000 to get back up to where we should be for the year.

If I wanted to carry Aqualung and scubapro (the two biggies) I would have to move more stuff each year that I even came close to moving in the entire time I had my store. That is if the reps would even tolorate me having the other companies stuff in the store. Especially given the price restrictions that they place on you and the online/mail order restrictions (many are changing their mind about this , BTW) the only way to move that volume of equipment would be to pump huge numbers of OW students through. It's rare that some one you don't know just walks in and buys a bc or a reg. It's students who buy that stuff. We do get walk in sales for mask and fins and an occasional wet suit but never for the high dollar stuff. You create your marke by creating OW divers.

This is the dive business.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

Back
Top Bottom