Salvo versus Halcyon: Solved.

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Status
Not open for further replies.
first, i dont know or have ever met JJ or BM.
I do not wish either of them good or bad in the future.
Trying to be as objective as possible, this is what i get from what i read.

as far as im concerned halcyon and salvo are companies doing what companies do. Im guessing the only stuff i can take as fact is the info where jj and bm agree
barry worked for h
barry stole from h
barry made a company
barry went to jail

i have no idea if the 1% thing is true. The only people that really know exactlly what went down are jj and bm. I'm sure barry signed a contract when he recieved a salary. I would have wanted to shot myself if i forgot the 1% in my contact. But i have forgoting things before:(

there are only 2 thing i wish had happened.

1. that barry sued jj as soon as he felt cheated.

2. the word "microsoft" was never mentioned
 
Jason B:
My point was that JJ is automatically assumed the one who is right here by almost every who has ever stepped into the same building as JJ.

Well, my assumtion that JJ is right is based on the fact that a group of impartial people (at least FAR more impartial than the people on this board) heard both sides in court and decided. I am still trying to figure out the justification for people automatically assuming that Barry is right.

I have agree with DerekS's well written posts, especially the part about GUE not expecting you to have halcyon equipment to take a GUE class. I was repeatedly told by my fundies instructor that there was absolutely no requirement to have a single peice of H gear. He said that there were certain standards required of the gear, but that the gear could be obtained from any company, anywhere, as long as it meet the minimum standard. One of the students brought some competing gear and told the GUE instructor that they got this instead of the H stuff because it was cheaper and they didn't want to pay the extra money for the H stuff. The instructor looked at, said it was totally fine gear, and a good deal too.
 
everyone:

this has been a tremendously civil discussion so far. almost everyone has
done a great job of addressing the issues and not resorting to name-calling
or hurling insults.

some name-calling and insults have been traded. we have deleted them, and
ask that you refrain from making such as we continue to discuss this issue.

most of all, it's impressive how civil this discussion has been. good job.
 
I was in highsprings yesterday. I went to Salvo, then I went to the Halcyon storefront. Both of them have great people and great gear. You will find on my back a wing that Salvo happens to carry (but does not make) with the Halcyon STA and cam bands. I have not heard any negative feedback from either party regarding my gear choices. This shows me that both parties in question are diver-oriented and just want to help people in the water. I'll leave the he said she said stuff to other people since you seem to enjoy arguing about it. Here in the motherland we are all worrying about our own lives and just getting on with it. A company is more than one person.

-V
 
There are indeed multiple sides to any issue. I've read some valid points on both sides of this thread after taking out the personal stuff and just looking at the situation and the undisputed facts. But you also have to look at the business aspects.

I don't own any Halcyon or Salvo gear, but I have been seriously considering a Salvo light. I don't know any of the principals. Let's just look at the facts.

Barry may be a genius. Very innovative and creative. But he was a very bad employee. Whether the 1% agreement ever existed is beside the point. He stole materials and time and labor from his employer. He embezzled. He is a thief, and now also a convicted felon. He does not dispute this. He admits he was wrong and showed "bad judgement". That shows a little bit of character, but it was forced upon him because he was caught. That doesn't take anything away from his genius. He was a bad employee and a bad businessman. If he makes a great product anyway and you want to buy it, go ahead.

Halcyon does not win any prizes either. If the 1% offer was actually made and not delivered, then Halcyon is also a crook. I've been there myself with a handshake deal with a friend that never came to be. It ended up in civil court with a reasonable settlement. The fact that Barry would go so long without insisting on formalizing the agreement in writing just confirms that Barry is a bad businessman. And if JJ made the offer, then he is a bad businessman too. Halcyon's prior dealings have also demonstrated bad business decisions, possibly motivated by personal issues.

I find it difficult to believe that the 1% was not discussed or else JJ would have denounced it in his post. The statement made by someone that it would never be offered because it was not good business practice is ludicrous. It's pretty obvious that neither one of these guys gets a good grade for business acumen. But even if the 1% offer was never made, it still makes no business sense to me for Halcyon to press for criminal charges. There will always be competitors. They can and will steal your ideas even if they were never your employees. They will make something better and sell it for less. Look at the pharmaceutical industry. Look at the airline industry. The "big boys" of today with the heavy overhead and R&D budgets were the small upstarts of yesteryear. They are fighting for survival against their own histories.

Wouldn't it make more sense from a business standpoint to seek civil action that continues in the future and actually adds some value to your company? If Salvo fails or even declines because of Barry's absence, what has Halcyon done to better it's position? The civil damages it will probably seek may be unavailable. And another company will come along and fill the void. JJ can tilt at windmills all he wants, but he'll never get rid of them all. He may get personal satisfaction from seeing Barry in jail, but it won't help his bottom line.

If it were up to me, I would have sought civil damages in the form of restitution, punitives, and an ongoing royalty. Halcyon should have ended up owning a piece of Salvo's gross sales. Then they would have a vested interest in making sure that Salvo continued and flourished. It would choke out other competition. It could alleviate the loss of revenue from their own lights because that loss would be sustained if another competitor entered the market anyway. It's like the Microsoft/Apple fight. A good businessman looks at every threat and tries to find the opportunity hidden in it. A bad businessman seeks personal gratification at the expense of his business. JJ seems to be a bad businessman in this regard.

So we've got two very bright, creative, knowledgable people that are running companies and making bad business decisions. Better alert Oprah. Doctors, artists and inventors have been doing this for decades. They think that just because they are the best at what they do, they can successfully run their business. But just because you build a better mousetrap, doesn't mean your business will succeed. Halcyon's actions have already spurred a significant backlash, as can be seen in this thread. Whether the folks who vow to never buy Halcyon again are misguided or not, their money will not be going to Halcyon. It's not about being right or wrong, it's about being smart and knowing your business. No company can afford to alienate a significant portion of the rather small market for dive gear when there are other viable alternatives.

I'll continue to be a smart shopper and go with the product that gives me the best price/performance ratio. But I'd be hard pressed to spend my money with either of these companies when alternatives exist. I just don't have the faith that companies run by bad businessmen will be around when I need them.

Ken
 
RTodd:
People make economic decisions at the expense of the highest moral road every day. I completely understand why the salvo supporters would want to buy the cheaper lights. However, claiming Halcyon is the evil empire or is somehow in the wrong for being incredibly pissed about what has happened is going a bit far.
Those who keep insisting this is about economics are, I think, really rather missing the point. Most of us who can justify the cost of a canister light are not going to base our purchasing decisions on whether it costs $1,200 or $1,400 ... compared to what we spend on our diving habit per annum, a coupla hundred bucks is rather insignificant.

If this were an isolated incident, it would be easier to justify from a moral perspective. But when taken in the context of the subpoenas passed out at DEMA ... lawsuits (over trim weights) demanding wings, O2 analyzers, and non-competition agreements for compensation ... and the public demonization of a former executive that just happens to coincide with the release of a competitive product, then I find it hard to swallow the "highest moral road" argument. There seems to be a pattern here of business decisions that take anything but the moral high ground.

In any conflict, it's too easy for both sides to use the "God is on our side" rationale ... and in most cases, it doesn't totally apply to either.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
NWGratefulDiver:
...If this were an isolated incident, it would be easier to justify from a moral perspective. But when taken in the context of the subpoenas passed out at DEMA ... lawsuits (over trim weights) demanding wings, O2 analyzers, and non-competition agreements for compensation ... and the public demonization of a former executive that just happens to coincide with the release of a competitive product, then I find it hard to swallow the "highest moral road" argument. There seems to be a pattern here of business decisions that take anything but the moral high ground.
If I felt screwed over, I'd go out of my way to make the other person pay too. Is that moral? Maybe not. But it is gratifying.

If someone comes into your home and robs you of a buttload of stuff and you find out where they work, you wouldn't consider embarrassing them and asking for supeonas to be delivered there? Heck, I would. I'd have them delivered at their church or any other area where a lesson could be taught. But then again, I tend to believe the H side of things so I am in the minority and morally wrong.

JasonB: I took the fundies and learned a lot. I know people who have salvo lights and I think they are a nice light. But that doesn't mean that I don't find fault in what Barry did. I'm only sipping at the kool-aid teet, but it's really not that bad :) Most people I have met are pretty darned nice and good divers. As are a mI enjoyed diving with you all and would welcome doing it again. But I will be bringing some H gear :)
 
Jason B:
My point was that JJ is automatically assumed the one who is right here by almost every who has ever stepped into the same building as JJ. There are only two people who know what really happened and one of them is in jail. This is nothing more than JJ supporters and Barry supporters talking crap to each other. What did you really expect from such a thread. Every dive board (except CDF) has this same thread going on and it is full of the same.

My first response was in violation, and to the mods, for that, I apologize. Here is my ToS friendly retort:

I agree that only 2 people know exactly what went down. Having personally met both men and corresponded with them (Jarrod on more than one occasion), I can say that IMHO, Jarrod strikes me as someone who would give a friend anything they need, whereas I didn't really even feel all that comfortable in my dealing with Barry.

In it's defense, the service I did receive from Salvo when I did have an issue was first-rate, but I'm still left with a bad taste in my mouth all around.
 
there is a reason The Rat is called The Rat. i can tell you that he used to get scooters in for repair, keep the good motors and send them out with crappy motors. trust me on this one. i know. his ethics have never been high caliber. most of you do not know the real barry. all you know is a light you like and judge his character on that. i have known him for over 10 years. i cannot argue one way or the other as to whether his light is better or worse than a halcyon. i actually have a rare, custom original rat light from before there was a halcyon. i converted it to HID, but the cannister was his.

[edit] The Rat is this person's nickname. as such, it doesn't constitute
name-calling
 
You "know," do you?

First hand knowledge? Did you work at Halcyon and see him do it, or do you "know" because someone else told you?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

Back
Top Bottom