Salvo versus Halcyon: Solved.

[cmalinowski]

I don't pretend to know all the details, but I believe this is wildly inaccurate and perhaps libelous.)

So Salvo can sue me.

It may be true that some of the first lights were made with Halcyon raw materials, but Barry apparently turned those raw materials back over to Halcyon.

Just turned them over out of the goodness of his heart? Hmmm... maybe the police had something to do with it.

and with the volume of lights he's churned out, you can bet your butt that most of the Salvo lights currently in circulation were not made with any Halcyon parts, raw materials, or services.

Agreed. Just with the money made from the stolen halcyon materials.

The canister light designs, parts, raw materials, and service are all courtesy of one Barry Miller.. not Halcyon.

I guess that depends on your view. Since he took over $100k from Halcyon, it was H's money that allowed him to purchase new stuff. Sort of like money laundering, only more like "parts laundering."

For the record, I don't hate Microsoft or Apple.. and I don't hate Halcyon. However, I do believe Halcyon really dropped the ball in this situation

We agree on something

...and upon considering everything I've read to this point I find it very hard to believe that they are more deserving of my business than Barry Miller.

And that is the American way. Freedom of choice baby.

I'm not sure I would have acted any differently than he did.

Then you'd be in jail now too

Hate innovation? Barry Miller has been the only one innovating in the canister light department. He's introduced a dozen new designs and features (Li-Ion batteries, sealed canisters that don't leak when a cable is ruptured, remote head, etc).

I never said Barry wasn't innovative. Very innovative actually. Just a poor crook I guess. I guess by saying what I said it came out of my fingertips differently than what I had envisioned in my mind... no shock there

Chris

 

[Derek S]

"Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott 1771-1832

I've been pretty silent about this situation for a long time now, but I've seen enough, and wish to speak my mind.

First, let me say that I own a Salvo light and moral complications notwithstanding, it has worked almost flawlessly from day one.

I took my first GUE Fundamentals class with Cody Gardner in Ft. Lauderdale, FL, in March of 2005. While the class itself was unimportant to this post, one part does weigh in. On day 2 of the class, Cody received a shipment of 2 21w 9ah Salvo lights to beta-test, and handed one to me for use on my rig for the remainder of the class. Cody already had an 18w 13ah Halcyon light, so I did a little comparing between the two. The lights were virtually indistinguishable. Cody explained to me that Barry had at one time worked for Halcyon, that there had been a "falling out", that Barry had gone his own way and Halcyon theirs, and everything was kosher.

Cody and I then took a road trip to an LDS to pick up my spool, wetnotes, and lift bag. While there, I looked intently at the brand-new Halcyon lights that were on display. Again, they were virtually indistinguishable, save for the company's individual logos. We then went back to Cody's place, tested the 2 Salvos and his Halcyon side-by-side. The Salvo lights to my untrained eyes, looked brighter than the Halcyon light did.

I went home, and did some comparison shopping. The Salvo 21W 9ah light was $1,100, the Halcyon 18w 9ah light was $1,800. All things considered (and again to my untrained and ignorant of the facts eyes), it seemed to me that the Salvo was the better buy. Hey, $700 is a lot of money when you're trying to convince your wife that you have to have an "Underwater flashlight" (as she calls it) that costs over $1,000. I called Barry, and ordered my Salvo.

Shortly after getting my Salvo, I received a PM from an original member of GUE and someone I consider to be a very reliable source letting me know the facts of the matter (which has since been corroborated by Barry/Salvo). By then of course, it was too late, the money was already spent, and I could not afford to sell the light at a significant loss to then turn around and purchase a Halcyon.

When I decided to re-take Fundamentals last October, I was worried that my light might be an issue, but after speaking with my instructor, I was assured that GUE isn't about holding a grudge, and true to his words, I was treated fairly and with respect (well, at least out of the water when my buoyancy and trim wasn't being picked apart by the camera ).

Fast forward to today. I have attended both the GUE Conference and CaymanQuest, and spent a considerable time around, speaking to and had correspondence with Jarrod as well as David Rhea. I can honestly say that I don't think either one of them has a malicious bone in their body. There were more than a few divers at CaymanQuest who were diving non-H gear and never once did I hear anything mentioned by anyone, and nary a sneer was to be seen. Hell, I've even had dinner at the same table as Trey, sat there and listened to him and JJ tell some pretty cool stories, and never once did he seem to be this "big meanie" everyone makes him out to be. From one standpoint, I like him in the sense that he's never afraid to speak his mind, no matter how many feathers may get ruffled.

Here I am going to call it as I see it:

There are 3 sides to every story. Side 1, Side 2, and the truth. The truth seems to be some mix of Side 1 and Side 2. We may never know completely what went down between Barry and JJ/Halcyon. The facts of the criminal case are clear though. Barry stole raw materials and gear created by Halcyon to help get his business off the ground. Barry is going to serve his time, and then attempt to continue to pick up where he left off (Dwain is obviously going to run it in his stead).

I believe that some Halcyon supporters have done more to damage H's image in the public eye than Barry's misdeeds. IMHO, people should just do what we've always done, and vote with our wallets.

I will continue to purchase the gear that I feel is the best made for each individual task. To this point, that has been Halcyon, with the exception of my HID. Unless I get a reasonable offer to sell it, I will continue to use my Salvo, but if/when I do go to replace it, I don't believe that I will be purchasing from Salvo again. As a consumer though, I must admit that competition is good for us, and it would be nice to think that we might be able to buy our choice of gear at prices that we feel are good.

So, to summarize....Let's all just shut-up and dive. :14:

 

[alexakos]

I am not in the habit of spending time on internet lists, less so on posting on them. Nonetheless, I feel compelled to do so when I hear of a discussion that threatens to impugn the character of someone I consider a good friend.

I have known both Barry and Jarrod long before the founding of Halcyon and GUE. I met Barry when he was living in Crawfordville and Jarrod when he was still teaching for the NACD; at the time GUE was still only a hope. My experience of their relationship and the evolution of their efforts was first-hand, as was the financial sacrifices made to realize those efforts. I remember Jarrod leveraging everything to make a go of EE (their early venture); I even remember loaning him money to make payroll and how he paid me back to the cent. If anyone knows Jarrod, what one knows is that he is above all else an ethical person with a deep sense of what it just. To believe that Jarrod's actions with respect to Barry are motivated by revenge or by malice is to admit that you do not know the man very well. Jarrod is seeking what he believes is he due; what he believes is fair. That is only right. It is not the domain of public opinion that determines what is fair; impartial judges in possession of what can be shown to be demonstrable evidence determine this. I am the first to admit that I do not know what harm has been caused by Barry's actions or what Jarrod deserves as compensation. Is jail time enough? Return of materials? I really cannot say, as I do not know how to establish the overall costs to Jarrod's business or what is equitable as compensation for harm caused. Are courts or arbitrators infallible assessors of what is due? Certainly not, but in our society we have deemed them better judges of this than persons whose perspectives are emotionally skewed by personal experience. I admit that I do not know what is fair here, what Barry deserves as punishment for embezzling from a long time friend whom he believed owed him more than what he got. I leave it up to those cognizant of the law who are in full possessions of he facts, not hearsay.

For the record, I understand that many of you will dismiss my comments as partisan; after all, I am Jarrod's friend and GUE's Vice President. Nonetheless, I am not on here trying to defend Halcyon, its business practices or its warranty practices; I am simply interested in adding a piece of information about a man's character which many may have overlooked.

 

[Derek S]

Panos, I'm sorry it has come to this. The last thing I personally wanted to see was the upper management of GUE needing to defend themselves in the court of public opinion over this situation. I am pleased though that you felt it important enough to come here and vouch for JJ's character. To me, that speaks volumes.

I remember Jarrod leveraging everything to make a go of EE (their early venture)

I was told of this, how JJ struggled hard in the beginning to make things work, and then to have that happen to him by someone he trusted, and felt was a good friend. If it were me personally, it wouldn't have gone to civil court or criminal court, because I would have been snapping a neck like a twig.

For the record, I understand that many of you will dismiss my comments as partisan; after all, I am Jarrod's friend and GUE's Vice President. Nonetheless, I am not on here trying to defend Halcyon, its business practices or its warranty practices; I am simply interested in adding a piece of information about a man's character which many may have overlooked.

No, you're not completely impartial, but which one of us is? I'll be more than happy to hand over stones to those among us whom are without fault.

Ultimately, I care not for people's perceived malice between Halcyon and Salvo, JJ and Barry. I admit that I don't know Jarrod as well as some, but I feel confident in stating that I believe him a man of character and integrity. I only want this to be resolved so that we may concentrate on the thing we *should* care the most about, diving and helping GUE become the best organization that it can be.

 

[Jason B]

It is true, JJ has had some real tools working for him. Heck, one was even a thief and stole over a $100k. But, it sounds like you are basing a lot of what you say on someone who, in fact, does not work for JJ. Surlynkid may be a complete *** in your book (I have not read his posts on the topic, so I can't comment), but that doesn't mean he works for the person he defends (do you work for Barry?). He just happens to be an apparently bad communicator who likes Halcyon. I think Jasonmh's point is valid. If someone is a complete knob, but goes against Barry, would that turn you off? Well, probably not now because that may indicate a wrong choice.

Do you have respect for someone who takes no risks, but lets others take the risk for them and then screws over the risk taker? I don't. JJ took the risk that the lights would sell. He purchased raw materials. Set up the business. Did all of the things that Barry was too chicken (Barry can't be involved in the conversation because he is in jail, so I believe it's OK to use this term--if not, change to afraid or scared) to do. It looks like it paid off now for Halcyon, but back then I imagine there were a lot less people interested in the gear configs that are becoming more popular now. And the risk was real to open up the business. Then, when Barry figures that the market really does want something and there is very little risk, instead of taking another risk and starting a business with a loan and raw materials purchased on credit, he plays chicken again and steals the raw materials. Not having over $100k in debt when you start a business sure does leave a lot of leeway for you to sell stuff cheep. So does putting off any R&D costs on another person's nickel. I wonder if the lights would have been so cheep if Barry actually had to purchase the raw materials from the get go.

If an employee walks out of Sony with a truckload of stereos he stole and sells them for cheap, that doesn't make him a hero for screwing the man (apparently to some). It makes him a crook. Not much difference here. Slapping a salvo sticker on that Sony stereo doesn't make it any less stolen. For all of those who think they have Salvo lights, think again: You have Halcyon lights with a Salvo tag since Halcyon actually purchased a majority of the raw materials.

Barry may be nice to his customers (and there is something to be said for that), but, in my opinion, he is weak, spineless (although stealing stuff is risky I guess), and a common thug. Everyone can feel good about purchasing stuff from the "Homeboy Shopping Network" ala In Living Color if you like; I'll choose to purchase elsewhere. And I certainly have a lot of non-H stuff. The H stuff I have is great... So is some of the non-H stuff.

And, just so I don't seem like some holier than thow preacher, I would consider that stereo (much like I considered Salvo products). It's human nature, and I'm not perfect. But, even if I purchased that stolen stereo, I wouldn't praise the thief just because he was nice and agreed to replace the product if it broke.

The same people that hate H are the same type that hate microsoft, ipods, and any other large, innovative company. These people are agast that some company has to offset their R&D and the risk they took by selling for a larger profit than the people who stole their idea (and in this case, product) after all of the hard work was done.

Chris

Well, I met you before you took you fundies class. step away from the table...

Edited by NetDoc to remove insults

 

[Derek S]

Okay, so when would it be okay to condone the theft of $100K in raw materials and equipment?

I'd hardly call Chris a Kool-Aid drinker, he was one of the divers in Cayman who weren't using a Halcyon set-up.

 

[ericfine50]

You know - this thread has gotten so useless,it should be closed.

 

[RTodd]

I am not in the habit of spending time on internet lists, less so on posting on them. Nonetheless, I feel compelled to do so when I hear of a discussion that threatens to impugn the character of someone I consider a good friend.

Those of you that don't know JJ need to take note of this. Scott is a close friend of mine and his internet demeanor, which some are using as a reason to further bash Halcyon, is based on the same feelings expressed above. JJ is a truly upstanding guy. Seeing a bunch of people bash him so they can feel morally justified in buying cheaper lights from a convicted felon is really hard to stomache.

Halcyon lights cost more due to higher overhead. Barry, leveraged that higher overhad to start salvo. There are untold numbers of court cases addressing this very issue and most don't turn out well for the misappropriating employee.

I would be the first to admit that JJ probably doesn't have the best skill set for managing a company like Halcyon/ EE. However, he did have the stones and vision to create it and make it what it is today. I can't really think of anyone else that could have done that. That is typical of most entrepaneurs - they can build great companies but they have growing pains upon success. And, Halcyon's "success" is a very relative thing. The entire diving industry does not have a single manufacturer that counts as an 800lb gorilla and Halcyon is on the small side even in the industry. (That is an educated guess.)

The above paragraph was to clarify that the following comment was not intended to bash Barry or JJ. The 1% of gross that keeps getting thrown around as Barry's justification is ridiculous. No low margin business in its right mind would ever consent to something like this. And, if it had even been discussed but not formally agreed to, your business managers would never let you do it. It would generally be completely unsustainable. If there was some sort of true oral agreement regarding Barry's claims, he could enforce it. It is unlikely there ever was. I negotatiate contracts for a living and people often hear what they want to hear regarding these types of issues. Add on top of that that this sort of thing falls outside of the scope of both Barry and JJ's business experience, and you have to write it off as a complete misunderstanding. Unfortunate, but in no way a justification for the actions taken by Barry or a reason to villify Halcyon.

People make economic decisions at the expense of the highest moral road every day. I completely understand why the salvo supporters would want to buy the cheaper lights. However, claiming Halcyon is the evil empire or is somehow in the wrong for being incredibly pissed about what has happened is going a bit far.

 

[Jason B]

Okay, so when would it be okay to condone the theft of $100K in raw materials and equipment?

I'd hardly call Chris a Kool-Aid drinker, he was one of the divers in Cayman who weren't using a Halcyon set-up.

My point was that JJ is automatically assumed the one who is right here by almost every who has ever stepped into the same building as JJ. There are only two people who know what really happened and one of them is in jail. This is nothing more than JJ supporters and Barry supporters talking crap to each other. What did you really expect from such a thread. Every dive board (except CDF) has this same thread going on and it is full of the same.

 

[Jason B]

I would be the first to admit that JJ probably doesn't have the best skill set for managing a company like Halcyon/ EE.

The 1% of gross that keeps getting thrown around as Barry's justification is ridiculous. No low margin business in its right mind would ever consent to something like this.

Do you see anything funny about these two statements you made?