Pony, Octo, or both?

[elan]

I have never seen anybody be able to reach the valve on a pony bottle strapped to their cylinder are you talking about a stage?

In my case it was a sling 30cf pony (just the terminology)

but you can do it on the one facing valve down for sure

 

[sufur]

i am a pretty new diver. i have 32 dives so far. i have been looking at pony bottles even before i started diving. i did all my open water and advanced open water dives without a pony. but after more diving i began looking into it again. finally i decided to try it out and with the instructor that i did AOW with i borrowed a 30cf bottle he had and tried it out. the bottle was slung on my left side. it did not cause any trim problems as i was initially worried about. the only initial problem i had was how to get into the water with it. since then i have bought a 30cf bottle but have not had a chance to dive with it. most of my diving will be down while traveling so whether or not ill be able to have it with my anyways is still an issue.

what has been funny about my experience diving is i have met a lot of resistance in my choice of gear. there is always someone telling me that i shouldnt be using certain gear, pony bottle, steel tanks, long primary hose, hog harness and backplate, and that i should just stick to typical recreational dive gear.

i typically come on here and read up on everything before making any decisions and try to learn the advantages and pitfalls of everything before i make a decision.
in the end it will be me that is solely responsible for myself.

 

[Gdon]

Having the valve open is the invitation for a trouble to happen, you can loose your gas easy by accidently hitting something with the purge and in cold water introduce a free flow.

A valid point, open COULD be a problem. Then again having it closed could be a problem also. It might be easy to open the valve UNLESS you are stressed, panicking and trying to deal with something else at the same time. I only get 1.5 breaths from my pony if its charged and turned off. I was thinking more of my warmer water dives and in fact I have hit the purge but only lost a small amount of gas, not enough to mention. However a cold water freeflow could easily drain enough gas to make the backup ineffective before you could shut it off (esp on the smaller ponies), then your back to the regular recreation kit, just slightly more buoyant. You say tomato, I say tomoto.

If you are confident that you can open the valve when you need to, then I will agree its better to have it closed in cold water, and if your going to train that way, do it that way all the time. Also be sure your buddy knows if its on or off.. you sure don't want him helping by turning it off when its on, because he thought it was off.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

A pony adds potential for entanglement, it has to be turned on before you enter the water and left on. If you only use a button gauge you have no idea how much gas you have available so you should add an SPG to accomplish that at least. Why would you remove your safe second? I am not talking about the recreational buddy system and never made any reference to it. I am talking about slinging a stage. If you route the hose from your pony bottle under your arm and to a necklace you are going to lose valuable time deploying the regulator for your OOA buddy, a stage bottle can be unclipped and handed off to a buddy. An Air2 is something that I would not consider as a usable regulator.

People with limited dive experience and the lack of foresight to evaluate and try different approaches tend to be the ones that continue to promote unsafe and questionable diving procedures. The OP is a new diver who does have an open mind, the idea here is to allow him the chance to choose his gear wisely and hopefully buy once.

If you have read his posts you will find that he has already tried a pony and did not like the unbalanced effect it gave him, of course you could make the rig more convoluted and slap another piece of lead on his cylinder to counterbalance.

I already stated that the unbalance force is negligible to me and can be easily offset if desired. Why would a slung bottle which is worn more off center of the diver than a back mounted pony cause LESS imbalance problems?


You don't use a pony bottle, yet you would tell me to make my rig more complicated by adding an additional pressure guage hose... I don't need a pressure gage underwater, if I go to the pony bottle I am goin up, i can deal with a little uncertainty of not being absolutely sure the pressure has not leaked out. It has never happened to me in over 1000 dives.

the safe second is removed because it is a failure point. It makes the diver have to deal with 3 second stage regulators and the benefit of a safe second is not worth the potential for possible confusion and the added complexity of the rig. Some people may think otherwise, but that is my opinion on the risk/benfit analysis and i bet my life on it hundreds of times a year.

Also, you fail to understand the common usage of a pony bottle in an emergency. If I need to share air, I am NOT going to give my pony bottle. I am going to donate the primary regulator that is in my mouth. I know that donation of the primary probably sounds crazy to you, but this type of protocol is not that unusual.

As for the AIR 2, that is another decision I carefully consider. I have used it for 15 years with very little problems. Last weekend my son and I stayed down a little long and I decided we should practice sharing air on ascent and on the safety stop. I used my air 2 and he used my primary, no problem, no issues. It is workable for me and yes I can vent air from the bc and continue to breath.

I have no problem with people slinging their pony bottle, and I think it is safer and adds additional options, like handing off a pony bottle or even leaving a trapped diver on the bottom and going up for help etc. I've tried the slung pony bottle and it is undesirable for my type of diving because it gets in the way, but one of my primary dive buddies disagrees and slings his. If I were a sight seer underwater and not doing things, I would probably sling the pony bottle (that is if I was not already slinging a stage bottle).

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I have never seen anybody be able to reach the valve on a pony bottle strapped to their cylinder are you talking about a stage?

Why would a pony bottle valve be harder to reach than the manifold of doubles or of the primary tank? In fact, if the diver chose to mount the bottle upside down, the pony valve would be extremely easy to access. Do you have experience with diving with a back mounted pony bottle? Do you dive with people who do it? Where do you come up with this?

 

[dumpsterDiver]

1. Valve on or off? I decided to leave it on because if I am faced with a situation where I NEED to use my bail out (aka Pony) bottle, it will be because the crap hit the fan and I will be under a lot of stress already and don’t need to add one more task to perform, possibly while getting ready to breath water. If the pony reg starts to leak or free flow during the dive I will see it because it is slung right under my chest. I would rather deal with a leak when I am not stressed than trying to turn on a valve when I am stressed. (Decos are different, esp if you are leaving them on a line while you go off yonder)
.”

That is a seemingly logical decision. However, there are considerable benefits to having it OFF. What I would suggest is to practice with it off and then for the next ten dives, practice reaching down to the slung stage bottle, locating the handle and then turning it open a little and then back off (do this by touch, no looking). Soon this process of locating and checking the valve will become instinctual, you will feel exceedingly comfortable with it. This might also be life saving if you should sometime screw up and accidentally leave the slung bottle off. If you have trained yourself to always assume it is on and are assuming you will be able to gulp air immediately, it might be kinda tough if it is off and you are not used to turning the valve 200 times (by touch) before.

In reality, if you need to breath from the slung bottle in an emergency, the 2 seconds of valve turing is not going to be a problem. Just like most people can make a free ascent from 8 feet, you don't need to breath THAT fast.

 

[Crush]

what has been funny about my experience diving is i have met a lot of resistance in my choice of gear. there is always someone telling me that i shouldnt be using certain gear, pony bottle, steel tanks, long primary hose, hog harness and backplate, and that i should just stick to typical recreational dive gear.

sufur, you are right. For the record, I am not saying that a pony is good for everyone, but I feel the need to say that it is useful for some people in some situations.

If I could modify your above statement, it would be that there is always someone telling you "You should never do X, ever." What they neglect to tell you is the silent first and last parts of the statement - "According to what I have been taught and chosen to believe, You should never do X, ever, and I will not consider any other opinions."

I feel that it is great if you want to dive with a pony and you have practiced with it and know how to use it properly. Same for doubles. Same for split fins and tank knockers. I may feel that you were hosed on the split fins, but if they make you happy and don't endanger me, keep at it!

 

[Gdon]

That is a seemingly logical decision. However, there are considerable benefits to having it OFF. What I would suggest is to practice with it off and then for the next ten dives, practice reaching down to the slung stage bottle, locating the handle and then turning it open a little and then back off (do this by touch, no looking). Soon this process of locating and checking the valve will become instinctual, you will feel exceedingly comfortable with it. This might also be life saving if you should sometime screw up and accidentally leave the slung bottle off. If you have trained yourself to always assume it is on and are assuming you will be able to gulp air immediately, it might be kinda tough if it is off and you are not used to turning the valve 200 times (by touch) before.

OK, you might have convinced me. My situation is that I only used my bail out / pony a few times a year really, on deeper dives or if I was not 100% confident on my buddy. Repeatedly charging the regs will drain enough air from a 20 cubic foot tank to make it less useful as a means of escape and I didn’t want to pay $10 to have it filled after every few dives.
However I can see a benefit in using the pony more frequently than I have been; and in doing more practice. I agree that if I train the muscle memory to be automatic, that’s the safest way to do it.

In reality, if you need to breath from the slung bottle in an emergency, the 2 seconds of valve turning is not going to be a problem. Just like most people can make a free ascent from 8 feet, you don't need to breath THAT fast.

I assume you mean 80 feet. And most times I would agree... it’s that rare situation where I need to breathe RIGHT NOW I was concerned with. I could hold a breath longer when I was younger.

[From a reply to another] …yet you would tell me to make my rig more complicated by adding an additional pressure gauge hose... I don't need a pressure gage underwater, if I go to the pony bottle I am goin up, i can deal with a little uncertainty of not being absolutely sure the pressure has not leaked out. It has never happened to me in over 1000 dives.

Here I must disagree, at least for myself. If I don’t know how much air is left as I ascend I get worried, and my breathing increases, making me more worried since I am using more air. I will be tempted to get to a shallow depth faster in case I run the pony dry. Now I have two (or more) factors helping to create DCS. The failure rate for a SPG is very low. I use a button type with no hose. All I have to do is tilt the bottle a little to see the pressure reading, and then I can relax (or go to plan B if needed). It also assures me that it is full when the dive starts.

[From a reply to another] …the safe second is removed because it is a failure point. It makes the diver have to deal with 3 second stage regulators and the benefit of a safe second is not worth the potential for possible confusion and the added complexity of the rig. Some people may think otherwise, but that is my opinion on the risk/benefit analysis and i bet my life on it hundreds of times a year.

Again the failure rate of second stages is low enough that I don’t think that is a major factor in the equation. Neither do I think the small added complexity is much of a factor. I use a 119 cubic main tank so usually there is more than enough air to share from that tank, but of course you need two seconds to do that. That saves my pony as a backup in case of first stage failure. It’s also simpler to keep two seconds on my main rig for the many times I don’t even carry the pony. To be truthful if I felt that I needed to carry the pony on every dive, I would in fact go to doubles with isolation, etc.

I find this discussion and debate very helpful., thanks for your input! :lightbulb:

(Dare I ask if you carry a snorkle? )

 

[TechBlue]

I already stated that the unbalance force is negligible to me and can be easily offset if desired. Why would a slung bottle which is worn more off center of the diver than a back mounted pony cause LESS imbalance problems?


You don't use a pony bottle, yet you would tell me to make my rig more complicated by adding an additional pressure guage hose... I don't need a pressure gage underwater, if I go to the pony bottle I am goin up, i can deal with a little uncertainty of not being absolutely sure the pressure has not leaked out. It has never happened to me in over 1000 dives.

the safe second is removed because it is a failure point. It makes the diver have to deal with 3 second stage regulators and the benefit of a safe second is not worth the potential for possible confusion and the added complexity of the rig. Some people may think otherwise, but that is my opinion on the risk/benfit analysis and i bet my life on it hundreds of times a year.

Also, you fail to understand the common usage of a pony bottle in an emergency. If I need to share air, I am NOT going to give my pony bottle. I am going to donate the primary regulator that is in my mouth. I know that donation of the primary probably sounds crazy to you, but this type of protocol is not that unusual.

As for the AIR 2, that is another decision I carefully consider. I have used it for 15 years with very little problems. Last weekend my son and I stayed down a little long and I decided we should practice sharing air on ascent and on the safety stop. I used my air 2 and he used my primary, no problem, no issues. It is workable for me and yes I can vent air from the bc and continue to breath.

I have no problem with people slinging their pony bottle, and I think it is safer and adds additional options, like handing off a pony bottle or even leaving a trapped diver on the bottom and going up for help etc. I've tried the slung pony bottle and it is undesirable for my type of diving because it gets in the way, but one of my primary dive buddies disagrees and slings his. If I were a sight seer underwater and not doing things, I would probably sling the pony bottle (that is if I was not already slinging a stage bottle).

We are never going to agree here, we dive two completely different styles of diving. Yes I have dived a pony and always thought it was a bad idea. I guess a primary difference is that my gear configurations are aimed at both team diving plus the possibility that I may be dealing with an OOG diver that I have never met and as such I do not restrict my options for an OOG situation. I agree with you on donating your primary (on a long hose) If you have removed your safe second and go to your pony and have a problem what do you do? Or perhaps you need to make it to the anchor line, do you have enough gas in your pony for a stressed situation? It is always good to look at a contents gauge and know your options rather than wait until you get that last gasp of gas. The main point of course is that within recreational diving limits if you are practicing good gas management you should always have enough gas in your backgas to get yourself and an OOG diver to the surface. I don't know what you are doing but I have never found a stage bottle to get in the way except in very tight confines and then I have the option of unclipping and passing it through ahead of me.

We could beat this to death and we will not get anywhere I am going to follow Dr Wu's lead and leaves you guys to it.

 

[=C=]

This is relatively simple. If you can safely decide 1)there is air in your tank and 2)you can close a tank valve then IMHO you DO NOT need a pony for rec diving.

Making these two assumptions the failure point is the reg.

To reduce this the risk associated with reg failure get a Yvalve and 2 regs. Learn to turn off the correct valve.

If you are diving so deep that maximum 1 minute of freeflow it takes to turn off the offending reg will leave in a dangerous situation with regards to air then you should be carrying a stage.