Pony, Octo, or both?

[Crush]

I would like to refer to my original post in this thread, where I said I don't blame anybody who has to dive with unknown buddies for wanting to carry their own redundancy.

Thank you for your (usual) thoughtful and measured response, TSandM. I agree with your statements and reasoning. FWIW, I was recently insta-buddied with some guys who knocked back a few beers between dives at Paradise Springs (an "open water overhead environment"). You can see how, in such a situation and without my regular dive buddy, I might have found a pony reassuring.

I am sorry to have had to single out DIR/GUE, but the point has to be made, even if it is unfair to practitioners such as yourself. If NAUI recommends redundancies such as a pony bottle or a Y-valve for deep dives (and I suspect that PADI does as well), I find it confusing to be attacked by DIR/GUE practitioners who (1) insist that a pony is never necessary; and (2) like to point out my limited diving history.

 

[TSandM]

mpetryk, people come from a lot of different backgrounds and experiences to say what they do.

DIR divers don't use ponies, because we don't need them -- but we don't need them because we train extensively to maintain a cohesive team.

Over the years, I have seen posts from people who have gotten into trouble because they have been tempted to use their pony bottle to extend their bottom time. I have also seen posts from people who were unable to deploy their ponies, or who found them empty when they were needed. Adding another piece of equipment to your setup always requires a fair amount of thought: How are you going to mount it? Where will the pony regulator be? Will you have a secondary reg on your other first stage as well? Where will IT be mounted? Will you have any kind of pressure gauge on your pony bottle? Will you dive it with the valve on or off? What regulator do you hand off to someone else? Can you hand off the entire bottle if you want to? What size bottle are you going to use?

These are all questions to reflect upon and decisions to make if you decide to carry an auxiliary gas source, in addition, of course, to sitting down and doing the math on how much gas you need for an emergency supply, for the dives you are considering doing.

 

[Double Diver]

That's one of the major problems with pony bottles. They make the inexperienced diver "feel" safe.

I can agree with you on this point. A novice inexperienced diver should not be task loading with a pony yet. He or She should be honing their skills under the guidance and watchful eye of a seasoned professional. That said, it is unlikely that they will be lucky enough to have such person available on every dive. You know what it's like out there, OWC are a dime a dozen, training is a joke compared to what it used to be. And Unless one has or meets a dive buddy who has substantially more dive time, or pays the $$ for a DM to accompany him or her on a dive, it's not going to happen. Enter the pony or (I hate to say it) Spare Air. And while that debate has been dragged across SB for some time now it can make sense for a novice to carry a small redundant air supply. Hopefully the peace of mind provided by it will allow the new diver to process a bad situation and make good decisions, not just press the Up button on their BC.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

A redundant air supply which equates to a pony bottle was a sytem that was developed without a lot of thought and has also been promoted by like minded divers, dive shops and boat operators. They have caused stupid fatalities to supposedly experienced divers because they jumped into the water breathing of the wrong reg a pony is just such a bad convoluted system that people choose to promote and defend and I do not understand why. It affects your balance and trim (although it does look really cool) it adds more hoses and clutter to your configuration. On the most part the gas supply is minimal to your needs and useless to a buddy or team member. Think outside the box and try and work with a proven system that does work, gives you a real advantage and will grow with you as you progress or at the very least provide you with a flexible redundant air supply.

No true! When you add a pony bottle, it may involve only one hose not multiple hoses. Some people, will remove the octopus hose (or use an air 2 inflator) and if this is done, then the addition of the pony bottle, does NOT increase the number of regulator hoses at all.

The pony bottle can be rigged very cleanly and if back mounted, the hose can be run under the arm and then up to the neck where the 2nd stage is held by a necklace. A very clean configuration.

As to why a pony bottle would be minimal to your needs,,, that comment makes no sense to me, you carefully choose a pony bottle that IS sized to meet your needs. Why would a pony bottle be useless to a team member? It should work about as well for a team member as for the person carrying it?

As for the pony bottle throwing off your balance.. That can be compensated for by setting a piece of lead on the other side of the main tank, however the asymmetry of the configuartion is so minor that I have never bothered with it.

The danger of confusing the pony bottle and primary regulator IS a significant issue. But if the pony bottle second stage is mounted on a necklace, the opportunity for confusion is minimal and of course a buddy check would identify this issue on the boat.

As for trying to depend on a "proven system that does work"... I assume that is the recreation diving buddy system, which is demonstrated to NOT work each and every day. Anyone who has any diving expereince at all has seen the break down of the buddy system, when watching recreational divers. It constantly fails and if scuba diving was not relatively safe, this failure would result in many dive accidents.

 

[Crush]

Thanks, TSandM - here are my replies. Your feedback is welcomed.

How are you going to mount it? Sling it. Where will the pony regulator be? Hose held in place with bungees and reg near the valve, rigged like a DIR staging bottle. Will you have a secondary reg on your other first stage as well? Mais oui. Octo in a necklace. Where will IT be mounted? Necklace. Will you have any kind of pressure gauge on your pony bottle? Yes. Will you dive it with the valve on or off? On. What regulator do you hand off to someone else? The one in my mouth. Can you hand off the entire bottle if you want to? Yes. What size bottle are you going to use? 19 cu ft for no-deco diving down to 130 feet.

These are all questions to reflect upon and decisions to make if you decide to carry an auxiliary gas source, in addition, of course, to sitting down and doing the math on how much gas you need for an emergency supply, for the dives you are considering doing. I did the math.

 

[Crush]

It affects your balance and trim

TechBlue, I agree with many of your points. However, you are a Technical Dive Instructor, and as such you know that tech divers can sling a bottle on one side and compensate by moving air from one side of their bladder to the other and move weights around, negating any adverse effects on balance and trim. Here I am not speaking from experience, but I did see a very cool 5th-D video which showed some divers demonstrating such things.

 

[Gdon]

Interesting.. I did the math also, plus I practiced using the pony to get up from 95 feet, slowly, with a full safety stop and plently of air left in the pony (to be fair, while not stressed )
.. And this is EXACTLY what I came up with and what I decided to use on deep dives... same rig, same bottle, etc. Its for escape to the surface ONLY. Now I will admit, there is some additional task loading to consider.. stuff gets in the way of other stuff sometimes for example, but its pretty easy to deal with IF YOU PRACTICE with it. Handing off the bottle is a little trickey for me because the bottle and regs is -2 lbs when full and little positive @ 500 psi, but its not that hard to deal with IF YOU PRACTICE. I would not mess with it if you have less than 50 dives, but when you are ready I think its a fine way to go, and a good alternative to doubles for open water dives. (BTW, did I mention that you should practice with the pony if you decide to use one?)

Thanks, TSandM - here are my replies. Your feedback is welcomed.

How are you going to mount it? Sling it. Where will the pony regulator be? Hose held in place with bungees and reg near the valve, rigged like a DIR staging bottle. Will you have a secondary reg on your other first stage as well? Mais oui. Octo in a necklace. Where will IT be mounted? Necklace. Will you have any kind of pressure gauge on your pony bottle? Yes. Will you dive it with the valve on or off? On. What regulator do you hand off to someone else? The one in my mouth. Can you hand off the entire bottle if you want to? Yes. What size bottle are you going to use? 19 cu ft for no-deco diving down to 130 feet.

These are all questions to reflect upon and decisions to make if you decide to carry an auxiliary gas source, in addition, of course, to sitting down and doing the math on how much gas you need for an emergency supply, for the dives you are considering doing. I did the math.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Thanks, TSandM - here are my replies. Your feedback is welcomed.

How are you going to mount it? Sling it. Where will the pony regulator be? Hose held in place with bungees and reg near the valve, rigged like a DIR staging bottle. Will you have a secondary reg on your other first stage as well? Mais oui. Octo in a necklace. Where will IT be mounted? Necklace. Will you have any kind of pressure gauge on your pony bottle? Yes. Will you dive it with the valve on or off? On. What regulator do you hand off to someone else? The one in my mouth. Can you hand off the entire bottle if you want to? Yes. What size bottle are you going to use? 19 cu ft for no-deco diving down to 130 feet.

These are all questions to reflect upon and decisions to make if you decide to carry an auxiliary gas source, in addition, of course, to sitting down and doing the math on how much gas you need for an emergency supply, for the dives you are considering doing. I did the math.

Why have the bottle on if slung? Do you think it will take too long or be too difficult to twist the valve handle with one hand while you are pulling the second stage out from under a bungi?

 

[TSandM]

mpetryk, it sounds as though you have thought things through. My last question is, will you donate your primary to an OOA diver, or your pony reg? If the latter, you may want to keep it on, but doing so runs the risk of losing gas from it during the dive. I know that I carry my deco bottles or stages with the valve OFF when they are not in use, but with the reg pressurized -- and it's amazing how many times I'll check that gauge and discover the reg has depressurized from casual contact with something. If you have it for yourself, you may want to carry it pressurized but with the valve OFF -- that way, you have a breath in it when you want it, but you won't lose pressure without knowing it as the dive progresses. Just a thought.

 

[Crush]

Why have the bottle on if slung? Do you think it will take too long or be too difficult to twist the valve handle with one hand while you are pulling the second stage out from under a bungi?

My last question is, will you donate your primary to an OOA diver, or your pony reg? If the latter, you may want to keep it on, but doing so runs the risk of losing gas from it during the dive... If you have it for yourself, you may want to carry it pressurized but with the valve OFF -- that way, you have a breath in it when you want it, but you won't lose pressure without knowing it as the dive progresses. Just a thought.

THANK YOU! THIS is the way SB should function - help others with less experience (i.e., me) and win over with logic, not platitudes (the latter belies a sense of uncertainty, but certainly not any semblance of self-doubt). Work within their constraints (provided that such constraints are not irredeemably dangerous) to offer the best possible solutions...

TSandM - I would imagine that in your cavern and cenote diving your gear takes more of a beating than mine does. I have noted no drops in pressure that cannot be ascribed to drilling with the bottle. FWIW, I would generally donate my primary and keep the pony for myself. In fact, off the top of my head I can't think of a situation where I would donate the pony, but who knows?