Primary donate in UK ice-cold water

[Seaweed Doc]

Today’s dip will be a balmy 11c

About the same temperature where I'm diving. But I have to ask, is it the 11C water that's best described as balmy, or the diver for going in that 11C water.

 

[happy-diver]

Today’s dip will be a balmy 11c

Hey man keep cool drink plenty of fluids and don't be cooking yourself

 

[derrickroger]

I'm recently preparing for my next GUE Tech 1 course but also have joined a new local BSAC club as part of my plan to get into a local diving community.

I notice that BSAC does not really officially sponsor the "primary donate" techniques - and after reading a few of their arguments, I start to make sense of it: primary donate involves removal and replacement of a "flowing" regulator, which increases its risk to freeflow and regulator freezing especially in ice-cold water.

However, I believe everyone has a clear and good reason (especially in this sub-forum here) why they use primary donate + a long hose and stop using an octopus. There have been numerous occasions in the past where I saw a octo diver cannot find their octos when needed, because they have been accidentally taken out of the stowage position by currents/entanglement/themselves when blowing an open-ended dSMB, and developed this into a panick.

I just did a sport diver pool training with the local club, in jacket and secondary-donate octopus, and I saw other students taking at least 10 seconds to resume breathing from the secondary octo because of the various reasons their buddies' octos were either displaced or got stuck in the jacket that they could not remove without excessive force. It should have taken me 10 seconds to pull out the stuck octo hose from my buddy, whereas even two months before taking my first Fundies class my buddy and I could do a primary donate drill and resume breathing within 2 seconds maximum.

This question is really targeting those who've been diving extensively in the UK or other similarly cold places - do you think regulator freeflowing is a big and bad issue? And do you think there's a reason to NOT use primary donate as stated above?

P.S.: I'm now using a set of diaphram regs with freezing kits, which are supposed to reduce the risk of a freeflowing. However, I do have a set of piston regulators that I might use from time to time, despite the last time I used it at the sheering cold 5 degrees celsius it just works as normal.

hi this is Derrick, BSAC, PADI, GUE (tech, cave), SAUA, certified.
The more knowledge/information about diving "the better".
The more diving experience "the better".
Yes, i dive under the ice and at times the water temp is a mere 27deg F. Ive also led informal ice diving trips. Ive had fellow divers from Florida say "lets have an ice dive with Derrick in Ottawa.
Ive seen some funny ice diving things. Ive also seen some ice diving deaths.
Like i say, the more diving experience "the better".
I think a major piece of gear is your reg. Yes, you need an icesaw, ice tongs, stages, reel etc etc etc.... these are essential but if you have not selected the "right reg" you're not ice diving.
I don't care if the reg is piston or diaphragm. The regs 1st stage should be EN250A or equivalent and:
1)with an environmental cap (dry or wet, some type of anti-freeze recommended by the reg manufacturer) this also keeps the salt and silt from contaminating the reg
2)do not breath or purge the reg at the surface
3)when underwater, slow your movements right down to a snails pace, just like the fish do in these cold water conditions. That way, the air you draw from the tank may freeze the 1st stage but not enough to cause a free flow. We all know about "adiabatic response" if you have a "cold water reg" and your breathing rate is minimum, there will be a freeze thaw happening in the 1st stage but you should have a successful ice dive.
Which reg?
the Mares MR22 + Abyss
the Poseidon Extreme
the Scubapro MK17 + seal
the Sherwood Brutt/Blizzard (dry bleed)
are regs ive personally owned in the past for cold water diving however, the Poseidon P300 1st + Cyclone 2nd stage im still using after 40yrs. I do attach the black rubber anti-freeze cup with plumbers anti-freeze on the reg., when the water temp falls below 40deg F. before you put the "anti-freeze cup" on, check the IP is in spec (175-180psi)

 

[☆hydro☆]

under the ice and at times the water temp is a mere 27deg F.

is this anecdotal or in salt? my computer has never registered under 33F for any freshwater ice dive I've done in the last 15 years.

 

[DCN]

Been diving Primary Donate in scandinavia and the Oslo fjord (where every winter has sub-zero water temp) for the pas 10+ years. NO issues with freeflow. Even when practising gas donation.

We have the same (limited) experience in the cold waters of the Oslo fjord, no issues with free flow even when practicing air share. That being said, we have only been diving primary donate since we did our ow course.

 

[Fat old english bloke]

You are absolutely correct. I believe the argument over primary/secondary donate here is rather a principle over training - is a scuba diver responsible for actively learning things out of their sphere of familiarity.

I believe my last weekend's experience was highly applicable. My old diving club sold primary donate regulator sets and anyone who purchased it from the club got a free one-day workshop on how to use it, usually followed by socials and BBQ. I have not heard of anyone who could not master the primary donate in a day and most of us all became very good diving buddies afterwards.

I recently did a dive and had to buddy with a diver unfamiliar with the primary donate and I tried to repeat the <5-minute skill drill I learnt from the previous club to this new buddy. They did not listen to my word at all and kept talking with other divers about how weird and disgusting I was. I do not wish to dive with this person in the future - I'm not an instructor or scuba diving business owner and I don't want to purchase a separate set of hoses and dive with it just to appease someone completely unrelated to my life.

To be fair they don’t sound like the type of person worth donating to in a hurry, so it’s pretty much a non-issue. I only ever change my setup for my daughter (from two bailouts bolt snapped to a necklace, to a necklaced BO and one on an easily accessible long-hose bungeed to a cylinder).

 

[halocline]

BSAC teach secondary take, and have it consistently through all classes. We often teach it as making yourself available for the buddy to take the reg that is safely stowed on the chest area without impeding the (make like a starfish!).

Rich

That’s a nice fantasy, but in a real world OOA emergency, the 2nd stage in your mouth is gone before you even know what’s happening. It happened to me twice while working as a DM in Roatan. Since I use a long hose and alternate on a necklace, no problem.

I imagine there are air sharing scenarios where the share-ee is calm and will politely ask for a regulator from the share-er, but not’s the norm in a real emergency.

 

[Edward3c]

That’s a nice fantasy, but in a real world OOA emergency, the 2nd stage in your mouth is gone before you even know what’s happening. It happened to me twice while working as a DM in Roatan. Since I use a long hose and alternate on a necklace, no problem.

I imagine there are air sharing scenarios where the share-ee is calm and will politely ask for a regulator from the share-er, but not’s the norm in a real emergency.

That’s the myth. When the U.K. HSE did the research they found divers did what they were taught in an OOG situation. Even 20 years after training.

The BSAC incident reports do not contain evidence that the ‘in-use’ reg is snatched.

 

[Wibble]

That’s the myth. When the U.K. HSE did the research they found divers did what they were taught in an OOG situation. Even 20 years after training.

The BSAC incident reports do not contain evidence that the ‘in-use’ reg is snatched.

The many reasons for primary donate...

• You know that the regulator you're breathing from works and has the right gas for the depth including deco
• It's extremely fast to donate out of your mouth and you look the OOG diver in the face
• The donor is in charge of getting the working regulator to the mouth of the OOG diver
• The donor has a secondary regulator necklaced and easily available to scoop up one handed and will have tested it during the dive
• There's no fiddling around to discover the 'octopus' regulator is jammed or just locating it and releasing it
• There's no hose loops sticking out with primary donate (PD); nothing to snag on
• The donation process is well practised and very smooth
• Sammy the Starfish 'take' is a mess requiring both divers to work; what happens if you come across a OOG diver who doesn't know about Sammy the Starfish?
• Primary donate relies upon the donating diver only

DIR has a lot of issues, but primary donate is probably the best aspect of DIR

 

[Edward3c]

The many reasons for primary donate...

• You know that the regulator you're breathing from works and has the right gas for the depth including deco
• It's extremely fast to donate out of your mouth and you look the OOG diver in the face
• The donor is in charge of getting the working regulator to the mouth of the OOG diver
• The donor has a secondary regulator necklaced and easily available to scoop up one handed and will have tested it during the dive
• There's no fiddling around to discover the 'octopus' regulator is jammed or just locating it and releasing it
• There's no hose loops sticking out with primary donate (PD); nothing to snag on
• The donation process is well practised and very smooth
• Sammy the Starfish 'take' is a mess requiring both divers to work; what happens if you come across a OOG diver who doesn't know about Sammy the Starfish?
• Primary donate relies upon the donating diver only

DIR has a lot of issues, but primary donate is probably the best aspect of DIR

My post was about the myth of primary snatch, not whether primary donate works or not.