Pony, Octo, or both?

[dumpsterDiver]

OK, you might have convinced me. My situation is that I only used my bail out / pony a few times a year really, on deeper dives or if I was not 100% confident on my buddy. Repeatedly charging the regs will drain enough air from a 20 cubic foot tank to make it less useful as a means of escape and I didn’t want to pay $10 to have it filled after every few dives.
However I can see a benefit in using the pony more frequently than I have been; and in doing more practice. I agree that if I train the muscle memory to be automatic, that’s the safest way to do it.

I assume you mean 80 feet. And most times I would agree... it’s that rare situation where I need to breathe RIGHT NOW I was concerned with. I could hold a breath longer when I was younger.

Here I must disagree, at least for myself. If I don’t know how much air is left as I ascend I get worried, and my breathing increases, making me more worried since I am using more air. I will be tempted to get to a shallow depth faster in case I run the pony dry. Now I have two (or more) factors helping to create DCS. The failure rate for a SPG is very low. I use a button type with no hose. All I have to do is tilt the bottle a little to see the pressure reading, and then I can relax (or go to plan B if needed). It also assures me that it is full when the dive starts.

Again the failure rate of second stages is low enough that I don’t think that is a major factor in the equation. Neither do I think the small added complexity is much of a factor. I use a 119 cubic main tank so usually there is more than enough air to share from that tank, but of course you need two seconds to do that. That saves my pony as a backup in case of first stage failure. It’s also simpler to keep two seconds on my main rig for the many times I don’t even carry the pony. To be truthful if I felt that I needed to carry the pony on every dive, I would in fact go to doubles with isolation, etc.

I find this discussion and debate very helpful., thanks for your input! :lightbulb:

(Dare I ask if you carry a snorkle? )

If you are going to sling your pony bottle then you should definitely have a pressure guage on it. The only time it MIGHT make sense to eliminate the pressure guage HOSE on the pony bottle is when it is back mounted (as mine is). The issue arose when Techwho indicated that adding a pony will add an additional hose to the rig and i think i showed that that is not necessarily true.

If you sometimes dive with a pony and sometimes don't, then you probably want to keep a safe second on the primary tank/reg. but again 3 second stages is not desirable in the case of a free flow, you can have more confusion, there is a question of where to mount the third second stage, and it IS another thing to fail. that is why I use an AIR 2, so on the few occasions when I don't use a pony bottle, i still have 2 second stages.

As for the urgent need to breath, I meant eight (8) feet. Most people can make a safe ascent from 8 feet without ari and most people can open a bottle and deploy a second stage in much less than 8 seconds.... Again you don't need to breath quicker than 5-6 seconds.. there IS enough time to open the pony bottle that is slung.

I also use a button guage on my pony and like the fact that it eliminates a hose and a swivel and 2 O-rigs, but many people on this forum continue to argue that this is not optimal as well.

Lastly, I'm old school, I carry a weight belt, use a snorkel, carry 2 knives and usually dive solo.

 

[TechBlue]

If you are going to sling your pony bottle then you should definitely have a pressure guage on it. The only time it MIGHT make sense to eliminate the pressure guage HOSE on the pony bottle is when it is back mounted (as mine is). The issue arose when Techwho indicated that adding a pony will add an additional hose to the rig and i think i showed that that is not necessarily true.

If you sometimes dive with a pony and sometimes don't, then you probably want to keep a safe second on the primary tank/reg. but again 3 second stages is not desirable in the case of a free flow, you can have more confusion, there is a question of where to mount the third second stage, and it IS another thing to fail. that is why I use an AIR 2, so on the few occasions when I don't use a pony bottle, i still have 2 second stages.

As for the urgent need to breath, I meant eight (8) feet. Most people can make a safe ascent from 8 feet without ari and most people can open a bottle and deploy a second stage in much less than 8 seconds.... Again you don't need to breath quicker than 5-6 seconds.. there IS enough time to open the pony bottle that is slung.

I also use a button guage on my pony and like the fact that it eliminates a hose and a swivel and 2 O-rigs, but many people on this forum continue to argue that this is not optimal as well.

Lastly, I'm old school, I carry a weight belt, use a snorkel, carry 2 knives and usually dive solo.

Let me make my last point here as dumberdiver is talking about points of failure, if you should have a problem with your air2 you not only lose your safe second but also your BC inflator. This means that you have to dive a pony which again proves that convoluted rigs don't work and you need to continue adding convoluted redundancy to make them safe, hence the term "Christmas Tree". I dive a balanced rig so I don't always need a weight belt, I don't dive with a snorkel and I carry two knives and a pair of shears.

 

[Gdon]

Let me make my last point here as dumberdiver is talking about points of failure...

I guess that’s a matter of opinion. While I don't agree with him on many points (like diving solo), I actually find DumpsterDiver's debate rather intelligent.

 

[TechBlue]

I guess that’s a matter of opinion. While I don't agree with him on many points (like diving solo), I actually find DumpsterDiver's debate rather intelligent.

That was meant as a joke and I hope that dumpsterdiver took it as such. As I said before we have two different styles of diving and we will never agree but that doesn't mean we can't wind each other up Oh and by the way, he started it by changing my name

 

[_Remko_]

Waiting for the water to warm before the first OW dive, I have some concerns about equipment to buy. Mainly, I am thinking about the secondary air.

For safety's sake, even though I plan on diving with a buddy, always, I am thinking of getting a pony and an octo.

I can't imagine there are as many people who put safety as prominent in decision making as I do...I am anal about it.

So, I researched and found horror stories about a panicked OOA diver causing all kinds of problems when grabbing an octo, and others where a pony failed., But, what else can you do? I read about regs freezing, which if it froze through coldness of the water, chances are the other devices are going to freeze as well.

So, i was thinking to improve my risk management, I would do both. What are your thougths? Is that overkill?

Forget about the horror stories, the accident reports I have seen showed that the majority of people drown with a full tank rather than an empty one. Look for redundancy in a budy and work on buddy skills rather than preparing for a lousy buddy (and in the process become one yourself). It is the cheapest and safest way to go.

When I come across a buddy that decides to swim of without looking back at me I end my dive. Having a pony with you when you are miles away from an OOA buddy will result in you watching him drown.

 

[FritzCat66]

The SDI Solo course requires that a solo diver use a redundant air source, either a pony or doubles, and I dive within my certification. As a strictly recreational diver, I consider myself to be solo on every dive whether there are buddies around or not; I am not tech and not DIR/GUE and do not consider myself part of a diving team and do not trust my instabuddies nor anyone else underwater. I do not like worrying about any other divers nor do I want them worrying about me.

I trust my little yellow buddy and have trained extensively with it and experimented with all the variables (valve up/valve down, slung/mounted, gauged/non-gauged, plain air/backgas, valve open/valve closed, etc.) to determine what works best for me, what seems most intuitive.

It is never part of my dive plan just like using my car's spare tire is never part of my drive plan. I practice using it in my own ideosyncratic configuration and continue to do so (usually at the end of the last dive of the weekend so I can fill it before I dive again). I wear it as part of my regular rig, even if I'm just doing 20' shore dives hunting shark's teeth off Venice, just like I wear my seatbelt even when I'm only driving around the block to the grocery store. I have never needed it, and I hope never to need it, just like I hope never to need my car's airbags; but just in case I ever do need it, I want it to be there, and I want its use to be as habitual and automatic and reflexive as possible (because unlike my car's airbags, a pony is not self-deploying).

So, to the OP - If you're a recreational diver and CHOOSE to use a pony, I would recommend taking it seriously and doing the same thing: i.e. figure out what's best for you, then stick with it consistently, constantly train with it and become extremely comfortable deploying and using it, and never make it part of your dive's gas plan - which is to say, don't just slap one on your back and think you're now "safe".

>*< Fritz

P.S. Oh, and as to whether or not to also have an octo, I would recommend it for the times when you do have a buddy. I use an Air2 and have my main reg on a long-ish hose (5') to share if need be, so that's one possibility, others exist. Again, we're talking strictly open water, rec diving.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Let me make my last point here as dumberdiver is talking about points of failure, if you should have a problem with your air2 you not only lose your safe second but also your BC inflator. This means that you have to dive a pony which again proves that convoluted rigs don't work and you need to continue adding convoluted redundancy to make them safe, hence the term "Christmas Tree". I dive a balanced rig so I don't always need a weight belt, I don't dive with a snorkel and I carry two knives and a pair of shears.

I really don't understand what you are talking about. If you have a problem with the Air 2 then you have to dive a pony bottle? What does that mean? If someone is not using a pony bottle and using a normal BC inflator and their second stage fails, then they use their primary seond stage. If they have to share air then they buddy breath.

I am recommending a clean rig, ELIMINATION of a superfluous safe second from the primary bottle for a diver who is using a pony bottle. How does this translate to a christmas tree configuration and convoluted redundancy?

Does anyone else understand what the tech instructor is trying to explain? This stuff should not be that complicated to understand. I explained my reasoning in a hopefully clear manner. People may not agree with it, but I hope that they atleast understand that their is some logic to it. Some of your comments have been demonstrably WRONG (e.g., the comment that a pony bottle REQUIRES an additional hose) and some of these later arguments are too obtuse for me to understand, let alone refute.

 

[NeedABiggerBoat]

I use dual first stage regulators and a pony. When solo or going deep, Having it makes me much more confident. Put it this way, how can a redundant air source hurt you? Don't worry about the haters on SB.

 

[Puffer Fish]

If you are going to sling your pony bottle then you should definitely have a pressure guage on it. The only time it MIGHT make sense to eliminate the pressure guage HOSE on the pony bottle is when it is back mounted (as mine is). The issue arose when Techwho indicated that adding a pony will add an additional hose to the rig and i think i showed that that is not necessarily true.

If you sometimes dive with a pony and sometimes don't, then you probably want to keep a safe second on the primary tank/reg. but again 3 second stages is not desirable in the case of a free flow, you can have more confusion, there is a question of where to mount the third second stage, and it IS another thing to fail. that is why I use an AIR 2, so on the few occasions when I don't use a pony bottle, i still have 2 second stages.

As for the urgent need to breath, I meant eight (8) feet. Most people can make a safe ascent from 8 feet without ari and most people can open a bottle and deploy a second stage in much less than 8 seconds.... Again you don't need to breath quicker than 5-6 seconds.. there IS enough time to open the pony bottle that is slung.

I also use a button guage on my pony and like the fact that it eliminates a hose and a swivel and 2 O-rigs, but many people on this forum continue to argue that this is not optimal as well.

Lastly, I'm old school, I carry a weight belt, use a snorkel, carry 2 knives and usually dive solo.

I happen to use almost the identical rig. Air2's make great inflators, and as I have it serviced ever year, has been much more reliable than your standard inflator.

Use button gauges also.

I've never run out of air, but I have had things break, so if I look at my statistics, I have:

A 0/5,000 chance of running out of air.

A 1/800 chance of having some equipment fail.(about half of which don't require any extra gas supply)

A 1/400 chance of having to supply air to someone else.

So, I am twice as likely to have to give someone else air, as I am to have an issue.

I am actually very comfortable using what I do.

 

[ams511]

Does anyone else understand what the tech instructor is trying to explain?

No, because he is talking out his butt. That is the problem with the DIR system. If you read JJ's book it makes perfect sense but when you listen to some of them (not all) they spout off nonsense. It is like once they pass fundies they became the judge and jury of all things scuba. To me you don't need a pressure gauge on a pony if you do not want one. Just check the pressure before you dive, the air isn't going to go anywhere. If you need to go to the pony the dive should be aborted anyway. If you have a leak you will hear it and then decide to cancel the dive or make it just using the octo alone. Does a hose add a failure point? To me no. Because failure points are on your main rig not the reserve. The bottle can be dropped if needed.

The main problem I see with a backmounted pony is the diver failing to turn it on fully. Then if it is needed it is useless. You can laugh at that but it could happen to a diver that is stressed or rushed. My opinion is that it should be slung not backmounted and no smaller than 19 cf with a 30 or 40 perferable. Look at the fundies book and see how they sling an o2 bottle. Do it that way.

I am not a big fan of Air 2's but that is my personal preference, I have no evidence (nor do I suspect anyone else does either) that they are less safe than an octo and inflator. They have been around for at least 20 years, so if they are unsafe I would expect that they would have been pulled from the market long ago. I think every recreational regulator company sells an Air 2 type device. Trident also sells some sort of splitter that allows a normal regulator to be used off a bc hose. I would have to agree that this would add a failure point, (However, you don't have an octo hose so maybe you get to subtract 1) but it can be unhooked from the hose in case of problems with the second.