PADI's new *solo* course

[Wookie]

My Shearwater Pursuit logs all my solo dives. I'm sure I have 20.

Back to the subject at hand, is this really a solo card, or a self-sufficient diver card? Can a diver with this card dive solo?

As a charter, what duty do you have to police dive agency restrictions / authorizations?

Unfortunately, a very real duty. It's all about shifting liability. If you look at your OW card, it likely says something about 130 feet. Doesn't say anything about 60 feet, however. If you have tech cards, it says something about depth and/or gas limitations. IANTD considers normoxic to be 16% O2, TDI says 18%. We give trimix rebreather divers 10/50 regardless of their certification. However, if You present me with a normoxic card and I put you on a dive site that is 280 feet deep with the expectation that you will dive that deep, who does the widow come for for relief when the husband dies? The training agency will clearly show that I allowed the diver to dive beyond his limits.

Not trying to play internet Perry Mason but if a cab driver drops a 20yo passenger off outside a bar are they responsible for what happens if they get out and enter the bar? If a boat captain takes a diver to a dive site does he have to be responsible for the actions of the diver under water? I surely hope not. I have had boat skippers try to control my diving activities and seldom do they have a clue about the kind of diving I do so what qualifies them to judge the safety of the type of diving I am doing?
A Captain asking to see a SS diver card before allowing a diver to go on a solo dive is exercising due diligence. A Captain who says one agency card is good and one is bad is just being a pain in the a55

Dave, you're not living in modern America. <smile> A boat captain in the US must go back to the training agency and ask what the intent of the card is. The SDI card is intended to allow a recreational diver to dive without a buddy, including planning, as well as execution of the dive. The IANTD card specifically does not. I would never have known that without contacting Duturi and the manual writer, who went back to Tom himself to get a ruling. So, let's say you show up with your Self Sufficient diver card, and I let you dive without a buddy. You die during the dive due to no fault of the charter boat, let's say you have a heart attack and tip over. You're wife is mad at you because you let the life insurance lapse, and she has no way to pay for that trip to Greece she wanted. It doesn't do her any good to be mad at you, so she hires a lawyer to shotgun the wrongful death lawsuit. IANTD says you met the training requirements for the card, but you weren't supposed to dive Solo with it, nothing is wrong with your equipment, can't sue the manufacturers, all that's left is me. Suppose her lawyer asks me why I let you make the dive without proper certification? My possible answers: Because I'm smarter than the training agency; because I have no control once he gets in the water; because I didn't know. I'm here to tell ya, your wife's lawyer is gonna win that one.

 

[wedivebc]

So what you're saying is if my wife asks for pictures of your boat before she lets me come out and dive with you we both should be very afraid.

About 10 years ago I skippered a boat for a lawyer who happened to own a dive charter. He warned me not to get too involved in what the divers were doing and not to ask too many questions, using the cab driver analogy to explain something about admiralty law that was way over my head. I guess times are changing in the legal realm here too.

Unfortunately, a very real duty. It's all about shifting liability. If you look at your OW card, it likely says something about 130 feet. Doesn't say anything about 60 feet, however. If you have tech cards, it says something about depth and/or gas limitations. IANTD considers normoxic to be 16% O2, TDI says 18%. We give trimix rebreather divers 10/50 regardless of their certification. However, if You present me with a normoxic card and I put you on a dive site that is 280 feet deep with the expectation that you will dive that deep, who does the widow come for for relief when the husband dies? The training agency will clearly show that I allowed the diver to dive beyond his limits.

Dave, you're not living in modern America. <smile> A boat captain in the US must go back to the training agency and ask what the intent of the card is. The SDI card is intended to allow a recreational diver to dive without a buddy, including planning, as well as execution of the dive. The IANTD card specifically does not. I would never have known that without contacting Duturi and the manual writer, who went back to Tom himself to get a ruling. So, let's say you show up with your Self Sufficient diver card, and I let you dive without a buddy. You die during the dive due to no fault of the charter boat, let's say you have a heart attack and tip over. You're wife is mad at you because you let the life insurance lapse, and she has no way to pay for that trip to Greece she wanted. It doesn't do her any good to be mad at you, so she hires a lawyer to shotgun the wrongful death lawsuit. IANTD says you met the training requirements for the card, but you weren't supposed to dive Solo with it, nothing is wrong with your equipment, can't sue the manufacturers, all that's left is me. Suppose her lawyer asks me why I let you make the dive without proper certification? My possible answers: Because I'm smarter than the training agency; because I have no control once he gets in the water; because I didn't know. I'm here to tell ya, your wife's lawyer is gonna win that one.

 

[Wookie]

So what you're saying is if my wife asks for pictures of your boat before she lets me come out and dive with you we both should be very afraid.

About 10 years ago I skippered a boat for a lawyer who happened to own a dive charter. He warned me not to get too involved in what the divers were doing and not to ask too many questions, using the cab driver analogy to explain something about admiralty law that was way over my head. I guess times are changing in the legal realm here too.

And that was exactly the way it worked 10 years ago. Any more, the dive charter captain that isn't an instructor/DM and doesn't understand diving isn't going to last long. It's a little like a fishing charter captain. You (I) wouldn't hire a fishing boat when the captain doesn't know how to fish, would you?

 

[fire_diver]

Why should any captain or DM dictate my diving based on my dive partner or lack there of. Nothing on any of my C-cards says that I am only certified to dive when with a partner.

 

[Wookie]

Why should any captain or DM dictate my diving based on my dive partner or lack there of. Nothing on any of my C-cards says that I am only certified to dive when with a partner.

You make an excellent point, but the standards of your OW course made it very clear that you were certified to dive with a buddy.

I wouldn't know what to do with yo if you showed up with a Scuba-bob or whatever that thing is in your avatar....

 

[wedivebc]

And that was exactly the way it worked 10 years ago. Any more, the dive charter captain that isn't an instructor/DM and doesn't understand diving isn't going to last long. It's a little like a fishing charter captain. You (I) wouldn't hire a fishing boat when the captain doesn't know how to fish, would you?

So if I show up with a rebreather should the skipper be RB certified? What if I have a RB he has never seen before or a home built or Russian IDA converted oxygen rebreather and flash a PADI Dreager Dolphin card will the Captain know enough as to whether I should be diving that gear?
I am just saying taking responsibility for a divers ability to dive may be as slippery a slope as not.
If something happens an ambulance chaser will probably make a case no matter what you do.

 

[Wookie]

So if I show up with a rebreather should the skipper be RB certified? What if I have a RB he has never seen before or a home built or Russian IDA converted oxygen rebreather and flash a PADI Dreager Dolphin card will the Captain know enough as to whether I should be diving that gear?
I am just saying taking responsibility for a divers ability to dive may be as slippery a slope as not.
If something happens an ambulance chaser will probably make a case no matter what you do.

You are correct, and it's hard to know how far to protect your insurance company, since that's all that doing due diligence does. No, I don't think your captain needs to be rebreather certified. I am not. I went and got trained, however, on what to look for before I ever let a rebreather on my boat. Actually, that's not true. I had 3 severe accidents partly because of my ignorance, then I banned them for 4 years, then I got educated myself. Yes, if you show up with an IDA 70/71, you will not dive it from the Spree, unless you show me your Russian navy logbook. As you will see if you look closely at our policies, heavily modified rebreathers (closed circuit Dolphins) and homebuilts are not welcome here. I happen to know that you dive a Meg, however, I even know where one of them came from. Show up with that one, and we'll be all friendly.

We don't happen to be the boat for everyone, nor do we claim to be. There are a lot of internet divers, sea lawyers, and self-proclaimed experts out there who would find themselves very unhappy here. I happen to think that you and I would get along just fine.....

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I have a collection of cards;

PADI OW, AOW, Rescue, EAN, O2 First Aid, Medic First Aid, DM, OWSI (lost), Specialty Instructors (Deep, DPV, EAN, Naturalist, Navigation, Night, Photographer, Wreck), Distinctive Instructor (O2 First Aid),

IANTD EAN Blender, Draeger Dolphin Diver (lost), Adv. EAN Instructor,

NSS-CDS Intro to Cave (lost).

None of the cards in my possession indicate a max depth, and I do not remember a max depth on the three that were in my stolen truck.

 

[wedivebc]

You are correct, and it's hard to know how far to protect your insurance company, since that's all that doing due diligence does. No, I don't think your captain needs to be rebreather certified. I am not. I went and got trained, however, on what to look for before I ever let a rebreather on my boat. Actually, that's not true. I had 3 severe accidents partly because of my ignorance, then I banned them for 4 years, then I got educated myself. Yes, if you show up with an IDA 70/71, you will not dive it from the Spree, unless you show me your Russian navy logbook. As you will see if you look closely at our policies, heavily modified rebreathers (closed circuit Dolphins) and homebuilts are not welcome here. I happen to know that you dive a Meg, however, I even know where one of them came from. Show up with that one, and we'll be all friendly.

We don't happen to be the boat for everyone, nor do we claim to be. There are a lot of internet divers, sea lawyers, and self-proclaimed experts out there who would find themselves very unhappy here. I happen to think that you and I would get along just fine.....

I seriously applaud your due diligence in going above and beyond to learn about RBs. I remember when you would not allow them and rather than alienating a sector of the diving community you went and became educated. Kudos on that.
Oh and me and my meg will be down your way right after the RB conference in Orlando next year so save a place for me and my buddy (because I still won't dive solo on a RB)

 

[wedivebc]

I have a collection of cards;

PADI OW, AOW, Rescue, EAN, O2 First Aid, Medic First Aid, DM, OWSI (lost), Specialty Instructors (Deep, DPV, EAN, Naturalist, Navigation, Night, Photographer, Wreck), Distinctive Instructor (O2 First Aid),

IANTD EAN Blender, Draeger Dolphin Diver (lost), Adv. EAN Instructor,

NSS-CDS Intro to Cave (lost).

None of the cards in my possession indicate a max depth, and I do not remember a max depth on the three that were in my stolen truck.

Yes according to that list you are certified to 130ft by virtue of your PADI deep card.