Let The revolution Begin!

[NAM001]

I am unable to find the reference to the statistics that I quoted. I may be wrong. I don't usually spout stats without reference. I apologize.

i wouldnt worry about the stats. there is an inherant self danger in the new and seasoned people. this is acrossed the board in all areas. the middle of the road folks stay in imposed boundries where the newbys are too much in a hurry and the seasoned seam to have found a way to work around the limits. or become complacent.

KWS

 

[MikeFerrara]

i dissagree

my opinion is that the skills are taught and time does not prermit the full mastering of those skills. perhaps i shold have said that the skills are presented and perhaps inadaquately performed. hence after you qual you continue on your own and master those skills before taking the next level traiing. here is an example: i can dump my gear but darned if i can don a bc in the water, i except that and compensate as needed. i have no problem whth the non bc rigs. over the head and its done. believe me i have tried over and over again. but i acept that like i said. of the folks i saw on my last trip you would imply that they were not tught how to put a bc on a tank, i say they were taught and they have not done it enough recently to be second nature, repitition and pracrice makes these things second nature.

Being familiar with some of the training standards as I am I can tell you that there's more to it.

Some of the skills that are the most important and absolutely needed to be in control of even your first dive are given little more than mention in training and some aren't given that much. Available time is only part of the problem.

Simply put standards allow for a poor class and in the interest of making more money shops and instructors take advantage of that.

It doesn't take as much extra time or effort as you might think to turn out an entry level student who can really dive. That's a fact.

I've had divemasters and instructors who come to me for an Advanced Nitrox class and they're unable to ascend or descend and stay witha buddy. They can't get or stay horizontal. I have to start them over with learning OW skills.

The most important changes could be made with little effort. Rather than let a class plumit to the bottom you make them descend in buddy teams. Rather than stopping the mask R&R after they do it once and survive you do it until it can be done neutral and off the bottom. Rather than spending 1 minute hovering or stop at the required 10 meter neutral swim, you stay neutral through the entire class and hover whenever you don't have anyplace tp go.

You add an explaination of trim to the text ans have students get that way. When these skills are emphisized in training everything else is learned far faster and easier.

When a class is taught this way an OW class doesn't destroy the vis by bouncing all over the bottom and they can really dive when they get signed off.

It's all pretty simple and it works.

How the agencies rationalize doing AOW deep dives with students who still don't have the basics down is beyond me. BTW, one of those students was killed in the St, Larwence this year and one at Gilboa hit the surface not breathing and without a pulse but lived.

There just isn't any sense in going deep until you can dive well shallow.
There's no sense in trying comples navigation if you can't swim horizontal on the streight and level without silting the place up and keep track of a buddy.

The whole thinh is backwards. You don't perfect skills on a deep dive, you perfect them before a deep dive or you're nuts. You don't first decide what time is available and then what you'll teach. First you decide what must be taught and the decide how much time it'll require.

BTW trim and good buoyancy control and good buddy habits aren't required in the standards for AOW either.

Ever try teaching a rescue class to divers who can't do a circular search and stay out of the silt? or an AOW class to divers who can't descend and stop above the bottom and stay with their buddy? I have. I won't do it any more though because it doesn't work.

 

[NAM001]

That's just the point though, current training isn't teaching people how. They just go out and practice lousy technique and many never get any better.

I'm amazed at how conditioned people are to accept what they're given.

How much time did you (or most) spend in their entry level training actually practicing buoyancy control, finning technique, ascents and descent with buddy teams staying together and managing problems like free flows or sharring air midwater? These are the basice that are essential to conducting even the most simple dives with control.

Both the standards and standard practice miss by a long shot. Just go watch an OW class. That is if you can see through the silt.

mike here is some things to think about and i am not trying to lecture. only to offer another perspective because i respect those who persue perfection. and i think you do.

1st society has made a no accountability world. if you pour coffee on you sue mcdonalds. halloween costumes that say this costume does not permit the user to fly. your car engine blew up because the dealer did not mail you a come in and get your oil chamge notice. kids are taught to deal with the word no untill they are adult inwhich tempertantrums involve guns and not stomping feet. i am invincable, no one can tell me no and i will do what i want. this is not a sport that can be enjoyed by that mentality. if you run out of air you cant sue. education and training (2 different things) require like conversation active participation from the instructor and the student. if little janey cant read or write....oh well pass them on and get them out of my hair. i agree with you this can not be allowed to hapen in diving. but there are those that in a language or english class will be taught to say " i am glad to be here and what did he say? when you get in the real world what you hear from little janey it i be glad to be here and what he say. it is disgusting to listen to and it association to being the teacher implies you are ignorant or inmncompetant. fact is they demontstrated the competancy in class and choose not to do things right when they be havin the license in hand. it is not the teachers fault janey is not hired for poor speach. any more than it is the teachers pride when little janey finally wakes up and implements what she learned and becomes self relient.
you put them in a class, you give them the tools and send them out to build houses. it doesnt mean you have to allow them to fix your roof though.
as diveing goes every dive is a learning experience. the buddy system fosters this. if you dont learn something from your buddy on each dive then you have wasted the chance to improve something. i like hanging with the tec or 500 dive types and non standard divers. i learn a lot, not all at once but a little at a time. if not technique, perhaps good gear or fishing reg's. shops to stay clear of or places to put on my top tem places to go to. and now adays the dos and donts of airlines. heck this board is training. this thread alone points out weaknesses in divers and i am more concience of before i jump off that boat. the weaknesses alone reinforce the predive checklists and buddy familiarity. its all learnig and it cant e done to vetran level in a class. you cant teach responsibility. if an instructor could only do that this board would not exist.

here is a thought onth bouyance thing. when i was younger the dive club has events that were skill oreiented. a compass contest 5 minutes north 5 minutes west and find you way back. balast control ... anchor line with a 5 foot section marked in it you got neutral and hovered no movement you were timed on how long you could stay in between the 5 foot boundry marks.

those things instill a sence of competition, and the cost is improve your skills. perhaps that would require some lds's or instructors to become active in profeicency and not just "selling gear/cards".

i am not sure that could meet the standards that some have suggested, perhaps i would still be waiting for mile nelson to sign off my first cert and miss all that i have enjoyed..training must always maintain a ballance of enjoyment, learning and achievablility.

enough...............

 

[NAM001]

Remember, none of us new good from bad till we became good enough divers to notice bad ones!

Good luck.

its all our jobs ( not just the instruction elements) to help improve each other

KWS

 

[GDI]

I am unable to find the reference to the statistics that I quoted. I may be wrong. I don't usually spout stats without reference. I apologize.

Hey guy's in my statement about making recoveries I didn't site any statistics. It was just a comment based on how people are getting themselves in trouble or worst because of lack of skills, experience, training and profficiency

 

[MikeFerrara]

Lot of great ideas, but remember, we're the choir. The problem is, PADI is the Wal-Mart of diving. Do you see a lot of new stores successfully competing with Wal-Mart? The vast majority of future divers are only going to care about the bottom line. Perfect example; how many of you shop leisurepro vs. lds?

Valid point. Many divers seem hapy with the industry and their training as is. I think it'll always be there for them. I know, though, that I wish I would have had an alternative because it sure took me a long time to catch on.

If a new agency was started and billed itself as the Harvard of diving, and built up a reputation for standards; a. Would it be able to stay in business long enough to build up said rep, and b. would future divers care? Remember, none of us new good from bad till we became good enough divers to notice bad ones!

Good luck.

I don't know but look at the gains GUE has made with thei DIRF class. Look how it amazes students just because they're seeing people who can really dive for the first time. Things catch on.

I don't beleive any agency is ever going to compete with PADI for numbers. Most people don't want to dive at all and most who do only want to check out the reef on vacation. But...then there are those who really want more and have trouble finding it.

If I was involved with a new agency, I wouldn't try to compete with PADI. I would try to compete with GUE. They put out wa better davers and they get paid much more for doing it.

 

[GDI]

Ok Mike, Genesis, rjen, dweeb, walter, etc. Lets look at this point by point. We may have done this sort of thing before but lets work it out none the less. In one of my posts on this thread I made a suggestion for a class outline, nothing spectacular I wanted to get some feed back and I did. Just for kicks lets call our new agency W.A.D.E. (World Association of Diving Educators). Here was part of that post now lets dissect it, and develop it?

Basic Requirements
Swimming Ability and Watermanship
Physical Status with Medical History
Expectations and Attitude
Examinations

Basic Requirements, Swimming Ability and Watermanship

First for instructors:
Minimum prereqs - DM equivalent or higher in certification
- Must have letters of recommendation from three current teaching status WADE Instr's siting skill profficiency level and academic base knowledge. Canidate must be observed teaching a portion of any class within theirs and the WADE instr common certifications
- Complete a skill review before three current WADE instr's demonstrating suitable profficiency in: equipment set up and tear down procedures and configuration, buoyancy and trim, three finning kick styles, no mask swimming, mask removal and replacement, regulator recovery and clearing, valve manipulation, inwater removal and replacement of scuba unit, inwater removal and replacement of fins, inwater removal and replacement of weight systems;integrated, harness and belt designs, Demonstrate effective OOA emergency procedures using standard octo, bungee octo and alternate inflator octo systems and single reg buddy breathing techniques, Demonstrate CESA, Safe ascent from depth with simulated free flow reg, Demonstrate Ascents and Descents, Demonstrate effective awarness of depth , air management: computers and analog gauges, direction, environment and buddy location, Demonstrate ability to handle diver stress and conduct a simulated rescue;surface and subsurface, Demonstrate safe deployment of surface marking device while still subsurface, Demonstrate profficient snorkeling skills, Demonstrate and be current in CPR and Oxygen Provision and First Aid, Demonstrate and conduct effective team dive planning and use of dive tables as a stand alone and in conjunction with dive computers, Claculate SAC rates, Demonstrate good group control and harmony, Demonstrate a good professional attitude and deportment.
- Be a DAN Member or equivalent
- Swim while holding breath 25 meters with no push off or use of swimming aids no time limit
- Swim 300 meters continuously without stopping and no use of swimming aids and no time limit
- Support self at surface for 15 minutes using only hands and feet or floating with no surface supporting device (final two minutes without use of hands)
- Support self at surface working within a buddy team keeping a 10 lb/2.5 kgs weighted object out of the water.
- be of healthy mind and body (handicapped person subject to same standards)
- have current medical status report signed by a doctor knowledgable in hyperbaric medicine
- hold and prove current liability coverage
- show proof of 250 logged dives; 50 dives at depth greater than 60 feet, 50 dives greater than 100 feet, 25 dives of low viz (less than 3-5 feet), 25 dives in fast water conditions. Remaining dives should indicate a broad experience base.

For the students the swimming and watermanship standards would be the same as would be the Physical and Medical standards All other skills would be developed throughout the training.

Expectations and Attitudes
At any level of training the student should expect to be challenged and to develop an acceptable profficiency in skills, knowledge and attitude. The total number of classes, and pool sessions will be dependant upon the student in achieving this level of profficiency. The student need understand that additional sessions may be required and thus additional costs incurred per session as needed may be levied. No certification will be issued until such standards have been met.

Examinations
All written examinations will have a bench mark of 80 % as a pass mark. Examinations are designed as a knowledge retention and understanding of academic material. All missed questions will be fully reviewed and are to be understood before a passing acceptance is granted by the examining instructor. All examinations will reinforce practical skills knowledge and development in addition to academic understanding.

 

[NAM001]

Ok Mike, Genesis, rjen, dweeb, walter, etc. Lets look at this point by point. We may have done this sort of thing before but lets work it out none the less. In one of my posts on this thread I made a suggestion for a class outline, nothing spectacular I wanted to get some feed back and I did. Just for kicks lets call our new agency W.A.D.E. (World Association of Diving Educators). Here was part of that post now lets dissect it, and develop it?

Basic Requirements
Swimming Ability and Watermanship
Physical Status with Medical History
Expectations and Attitude
Examinations

Basic Requirements, Swimming Ability and Watermanship

sounds pretty expensive to me. lets see if you dont like the way i use my fins then for another 25 bucks i will get aome time to perfect it with your 150.00 finns in your store. if i just cant get the gear off of a distressed diver for another 75 i will get some more hours to perfect that.

if the problem is that lds's and instructors are in it for the bucks then this does not fix that problem. enentually when enough spend the 1k for training befor extra sessions, and they can only acomplish 90% of it and quit because they are not interested in rescue or nitrox ect., then what will that do for wade reputation. i know what i would say...they got my thousand bucks made me buy thier gear and looked for reasons to not issue a cert. no cert no liability. no dead wade divers. of course if you refunded the money that would be different but that cant be in the plan. you would refund too much. you would have to bend the rules to keep the money. and now things have gone full circle with wade baing near equal to padi and others. not to mention why pay a grand for what you can get for 1/5 the price. a hundred certified wade divers and that is great...a couple of less than satisfied wade weed outs and later certified padi grads wipes them all out in the world of PR. lastly perfection as a minimum standard destroys not builds confidence. there is no where to go but down.

KWS

 

[Genesis]

GDI, are you requiring all divers to now take a full medical (rather than self-certify that they're free of a various list of diseases and disorders, and only if the answer is "YES" to one of THOSE questions take a medical)?

IMHO that's overreaching and unlikely to get very far, not to mention that finding hyperbaric physicians is not all that easy. Further, in this day and age of HMOs and PPOs you might be able to find one, but they will be "out of network" and this is likely to be seen as "unnecessary" by your insurer, meaning you eat the entire thing out of pocket.

I can see this for instructors, but for divers?

 

[dweeb]

That should be the way diving is done.

I'm convinced of it, after what I've seen.

Across the board.

Nobody stops me from going down a black diamond ski hill. Even if doing so might be suicidal at my skiing skill level.

Exactly. I'm all for that, but it's not THE way. It's one of two sensible ways.
A credential system is fine, provided that the credentials are meaningful. If you are going to have some authority certifying that someone is competent to dive, so a charter operator who doesn't want people dying off his boat has a means of avoiding it, then see to it that the certification is not a lie. That means seeing to it that the most marginal passing student is ready to take responsibility for himself in the water without a babysitter. Remember what they call the one who graduates last in the class from med school - doctor. That means your WORST passing student can take care of himself in the water. (For anyone having PC hissy fits, in this context himself can just as easily be herself. I'm a lazy typist.)

This brings up something else though - what makes the certification meaningful. Genesis mentioned not freaking out when things go awry.
That's a big part of it. Samsp's satisfaction with his training stems partially from the fact that he hasn't been tested in this regard. Diving is different from skiing in that it doesn't taka a double black diamond to kill people. When someone panics, they revert to instinct, which is to hold their breath and go for the surface, and which can kill them in a swimming pool. When a certification of readiness is issued, it's more than a mere matter of knowledge and skills. It says the holder can be relied upon to handle possible underwater problems in a calm and intelligent manner, so a meaningful certification process has to also ascertain the candidate's ability in this respect. It should weed out the intellectual and emotional invalids that make up the majority of our society. If you're not willing to do that, then you have no business issuing credentials of readiness. They don't certify people as physicians who faint at the sight of blood, no matter how much knowledge and skill they have.

The encounter I mentioned after diving the Eagle is a classic example. By now most of you have realized I don't softpedal my position. In talking to this kid about his diving to 106 fsw with no idea of his time, it came down to me looking him in the eye, and asking him whether he didn't see a problem with that. At this point in the conversation, the context, and my wording and tone would have led the average 5 year old to start to question their nonchalance with the situation, but his response indicated he still didn't suspect he might have done something amiss. This kid was an idiot - in a battle of wits, he'd lose to a turnip. Given his possession of a C-card, clearly, the process isn't screening. There are people diving who shouldn't be allowed to walk the streets without medical supervision.

Of course, if we eliminate the certification process, it doesn't bar idiots and nervous wrecks from diving, but it also doesn't hand them a credential that
supports any fantasies they have of competence, or misrepresents those delusions as fact to third parties. Rjens, if you want to sling on some tanks and hit the Doria, let it be on your own poor judgement and not because some agency that just wanted your money told you you were ready without checking first, and vouched to the boat captain that you weren't going to force him to spend several days talking to investigators.

Credentials are the currency of competence in any society too large to check everyone out firsthand. Like monetary currency, inflation can destroy their value.