Let The revolution Begin!

[Genesis]

I have no problem with purchasing training.

Unfortunately, most of the time that's not what you're buying. You're buying a card.

Sure, there are exceptions, but here's the thing - it kinda goes back to some of my college experiences. There were people in one of the "weed-out" classes who were TRULY having trouble - this was a class reputed to have a 70% failure rate on the first shot, after all.

This was the class that finally drove me to leave college. Why? Because I knew the subject matter better than the "professor" did. It got boring leaving him red-faced at the front of the class.

I heard that "Rescue" was tough, as an example. I didn't think it was tough. Somewhat physically demanding, but not difficult. A year prior? I might have failed it! But when I took it? It wasn't hard at all.

When you stop learning, that's when its time go quit before you get hurt. But its nothing more than capitalism run amok to suggest (or state outright) that the only way you can learn what you need to know is by buying a class.

 

[DivesWithTurtles]

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...It will matter not what certification a diver has or what level they are certified to. It will not matter what agency from whom they received their certification. It will not matter if they are certified. It will not matter the next time I am called to make a recovery....

GDI, statistics indicate that the next time you are called to make a recovery, it will be a diver with between 50 and 200 dives, an advanced diver per se, not a beginner. I agree with jrens, samsp, and others calling for availability of meaningful follow on courses rather than changes to BOW.

Genesis, as an analogy, would you suggest instrument flying, multi-engine, and maybe jet training to be included in private pilot training?

And, if BOW training is 6 or 8 times as expensive as it is currently priced, I think we'll have to all make our dive equipment ourselves, because the gear manufacturers will all be out of business with one tenth as many beginners.

 

[NAM001]

GDI, statistics indicate that the next time you are called to make a recovery, it will be a diver with between 50 and 200 dives, an advanced diver per se, not a beginner. I agree with jrens, samsp, and others calling for availability of meaningful follow on courses rather than changes to BOW.

interesting statistics. funny that it suggests at some point you think you become invincable and push the envelope once too many times. my first saltwater dive was frightning for me. being the product of the fresh water world. no one ever got eaten by a catfish... know what i mean. i still have a slight hesitance to be the first off the boat into jaws. there is so many more oppertunities to be confronted by the unexpected in salt water than the fresh i grew up on. perhaps that may be a fundimental training reason for me.

as for the statistics my sommer vacation was a dive week and that week had 2 tank losses 2 out of airs and an emergency diver pickup because of exhaustion from surface current. perhaps i should say that was the first 3 days of the week. i did 2 dives per day 7 out of 8 days. they were not in my opinion profecient folks. thay had basic problems that were compounded by the environment and stupidity. one of them could not get his bc in his tank. the regulator hose kept getting caught between the strap and the tank from putting the bc on after mounting the regulator. others not sure which way to face the valve in the bc. another one 300lb+ with a 5mil full on and insisted on no need of weights. finally got down with 26#. one ran out of air on the surface return and the again at 70 ' getting to the surface with not enough air to fill his bc and did not know how to manually fill it. did i mention he was heavy also. there are all kinds. at one time or another we have all been part of that group. even if it is on the first dive of the year or the first dive on that just serviced equipment. i still rememver my first dive 35 years ago and i will never do it again. i will do it smarter however. training taught me how and practice makes it work.

 

[rjens]

i will do it smarter however. training taught me how and practice makes it work.

Perfect way to sum up this thread up.

 

[MikeFerrara]

GDI, statistics indicate that the next time you are called to make a recovery, it will be a diver with between 50 and 200 dives, an advanced diver per se, not a beginner.

The DAN report suggests that it will be a diver with little training and little recent experience. The report also shows that bouyancy control problems and rapid ascents are reported on a large percentage of dives that result in injury. In other words poor basic skills. Many divers are turned loose certified with very poor basic skills.

I agree with jrens, samsp, and others calling for availability of meaningful follow on courses rather than changes to BOW.

I disagree. A OW course shoud put out a diver with good basic skills. They should understand the mechanics of balance and trim and they should be able to manage a problem while controling position in the water and maintaining buddy contact. Also note that most divers who die are alone when they die. Buddy seperations are common. Of course most OW classes don't require a student to demonstrate their ability to be an effective buddy and the standards certainly don't require it.

Genesis, as an analogy, would you suggest instrument flying, multi-engine, and maybe jet training to be included in private pilot training?

No but I am suggesting that OW students learn OW skills off the bottom so they can perform in a real diving situation. They don't. Luckily a diver can drop to the bottom and crawl around for a while and usually not get hurt. If, however something goes wron they don't stand much of a chance. Reference the recent accident where a lady with 3 buddies drown in 5 feet of water with a full tank while tangled in Kelp. Her buddies went looking for her when she didn't show up at the bottom!. These divers weren't even taught to make a descent. Most divers aren't and a correct ascent staying with a buddy isn't required by standards either.

Also reference the guy on the west coast who's buddy shut his air off on the surface to make it easier to hook up his bc inflator. The guy didn't have his fins on either. He sunk and drowned.

And, if BOW training is 6 or 8 times as expensive as it is currently priced, I think we'll have to all make our dive equipment ourselves, because the gear manufacturers will all be out of business with one tenth as many beginners.

This is not, IMO, a responsible attitute. First you define what makes a person an entry level diver not how little you can provide and get away with in order to get lots of them. That's exactly what's going on. Cronin knew what he was doing to sell lots of certs and equipment it's just that they do a lousy job of teaching diving.

 

[MikeFerrara]

training taught me how and practice makes it work.

That's just the point though, current training isn't teaching people how. They just go out and practice lousy technique and many never get any better.

I'm amazed at how conditioned people are to accept what they're given.

How much time did you (or most) spend in their entry level training actually practicing buoyancy control, finning technique, ascents and descent with buddy teams staying together and managing problems like free flows or sharring air midwater? These are the basice that are essential to conducting even the most simple dives with control.

Both the standards and standard practice miss by a long shot. Just go watch an OW class. That is if you can see through the silt.

 

[Genesis]

That's just the point though, current training isn't teaching people how. They just go out and practice lousy technique and many never get any better.

I'm amazed at how conditioned people are to accept what they're given.

How much time did you (or most) spend in their entry level training actually practicing buoyancy control, finning technique, ascents and descent with buddy teams staying together and managing problems like free flows or sharring air midwater? These are the basice that are essential to conducting even the most simple dives with control.

Both the standards and standard practice miss by a long shot. Just go watch an OW class. That is if you can see through the silt.

I can tell you how much I saw it being done during the OW classes I have observed.

Zero.

That include my own OW class.

 

[DivesWithTurtles]

GDI, statistics indicate that the next time you are called to make a recovery, it will be a diver with between 50 and 200 dives, an advanced diver per se, not a beginner.

The DAN report suggests that it will be a diver with little training and little recent experience. The report also shows that bouyancy control problems and rapid ascents are reported on a large percentage of dives that result in injury. In other words poor basic skills. Many divers are turned loose certified with very poor basic skills.

I am unable to find the reference to the statistics that I quoted. I may be wrong. I don't usually spout stats without reference. I apologize.

 

[NAM001]

That's just the point though, current training isn't teaching people how. They just go out and practice lousy technique and many never get any better.

I'm amazed at how conditioned people are to accept what they're given.

How much time did you (or most) spend in their entry level training actually practicing buoyancy control, finning technique, ascents and descent with buddy teams staying together and managing problems like free flows or sharring air midwater? These are the basice that are essential to conducting even the most simple dives with control.

Both the standards and standard practice miss by a long shot. Just go watch an OW class. That is if you can see through the silt.

i dissagree

my opinion is that the skills are taught and time does not prermit the full mastering of those skills. perhaps i shold have said that the skills are presented and perhaps inadaquately performed. hence after you qual you continue on your own and master those skills before taking the next level traiing. here is an example: i can dump my gear but darned if i can don a bc in the water, i except that and compensate as needed. i have no problem whth the non bc rigs. over the head and its done. believe me i have tried over and over again. but i acept that like i said. of the folks i saw on my last trip you would imply that they were not tught how to put a bc on a tank, i say they were taught and they have not done it enough recently to be second nature, repitition and pracrice makes these things second nature.

 

[PhotoTJ]

Lot of great ideas, but remember, we're the choir. The problem is, PADI is the Wal-Mart of diving. Do you see a lot of new stores successfully competing with Wal-Mart? The vast majority of future divers are only going to care about the bottom line. Perfect example; how many of you shop leisurepro vs. lds?

If a new agency was started and billed itself as the Harvard of diving, and built up a reputation for standards; a. Would it be able to stay in business long enough to build up said rep, and b. would future divers care? Remember, none of us new good from bad till we became good enough divers to notice bad ones!

Good luck.