Let The revolution Begin!

[GDI]

Are you a new diver or a very experienced one. If given the opportunity to develop the skills, teaching techniques, instructor standards and procedures. instructor policies, agency policies, student standards - what would you want to see? What would you expect of your agency? What would you expect for dive instruction liability? What would you expect of other divers? Do you want to build an agency? Do you want to build a academic and skill curiculum? Now is the time to voice your opinion. Obviously the existing agencies are not doing what is expective from the rec to full tec diver levels.

ps Keep it real. Keep it civil.

 

[WillAbbott]

Are you a new diver or a very experienced one. If given the opportunity to develop the skills, teaching techniques, instructor standards and procedures. instructor policies, agency policies, student standards - what would you want to see? What would you expect of your agency? What would you expect for dive instruction liability? What would you expect of other divers? Do you want to build an agency? Do you want to build a academic and skill curiculum? Now is the time to voice your opinion. Obviously the existing agencies are not doing what is expective from the rec to full tec diver levels.

ps Keep it real. Keep it civil.

Well, from my expereince with PADI... I hate the rule of me having to dive with a snorkel for certification dives... I can understand when it's required, and that they don't care if I wear it except when needed, but I don't even want to carry the stupid thing...

And instructors who get pissy (pardon my french) when you don't dive thier way... my OW instructor was not all that pleased when I showed up in Rescue class with a Halcyon Pioneer set up, with the 7' hose... in fact he MADE me take my 7' hose off and put on a 3' hose, which I fought ever dive, having the thing flapping in the breeze, or fall off it's POS (pardon my french again) ocoto holder.

I think there are some good agencies and instructors, and I used to think he was till I didn't dive the way he wanted me to, and he started telling me that things I was doing were wrong, even though they were the "proper" way to do it.

Also, I think PADI needs to in ways get less conservative, and more upto date.... when I took a Nitrox class recently, the curicullum taught that no one knows how long it takes for O2 exposure to go down, where as in IANTD Adv Nitrox (according to a friend currently in it) it's well known that in what is it 90mins the exposure is cut in half, and that many a dive computers give credit for SI's for O2 exposure... after taking the class I thought these computers were unsafe, but it turns out, no, there is scientific evidence to back these decompression models. They also in Open Water stress not diving to the limits, but one of the questions I got wrong on the nitrox test, was specifically asking for you to say it's true that a use for the formulas are so you can dive CLOSER to the limits than you could if you used thier tables... Talk about a contridiction in the education.

Ok enough out of me... most of it I wouldn't change, but I keep picking up on small things in the curriculum, the things that make you go... HUH?!?!?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Also, I think PADI needs to in ways get less conservative, and more upto date.... when I took a Nitrox class recently, the curicullum taught that no one knows how long it takes for O2 exposure to go down, where as in IANTD Adv Nitrox (according to a friend currently in it) it's well known that in what is it 90mins the exposure is cut in half, and that many a dive computers give credit for SI's for O2 exposure... after taking the class I thought these computers were unsafe, but it turns out, no, there is scientific evidence to back these decompression models. They also in Open Water stress not diving to the limits, but one of the questions I got wrong on the nitrox test, was specifically asking for you to say it's true that a use for the formulas are so you can dive CLOSER to the limits than you could if you used thier tables... Talk about a contridiction in the education.

Ok enough out of me... most of it I wouldn't change, but I keep picking up on small things in the curriculum, the things that make you go... HUH?!?!?

The O2 clock...
Neither PADI or IANTD introduces surface interval credit entry level nitrox.

The reason is simple, It's almost impossible to get any where near 100% on the clock while diving within recreational limits. Therefore it's just treated as a daily limit.

Another point worth mentioning is that "time" is a poor predictor of CNS tox. While computers do give SI credit, different computers use different half times. Some decompression software lets you choose the half time.

In technical diving you need to consider surface time because it's very easy to blow away the 100% limit on a single.

 

[simbrooks]

We all know PADI has a good strangle hold on the intro-to-diving world, i guess part of the big problem with that is their PR and to give any new "agency" a chance they have to compete with that. Those who arent divers see only the time and price limits, IF you could somehow show them that more time/experience/instruction is worth spending more money, then those who are intelligent/forward thinking/desiring to do more than resort dive would take that option to get the most out of their instruction. I know i felt cheated at the end of the training i did particularly when i read about other instructors going beyond the minimum and teaching useful things that will aid a diver and not just the barely staying alive skills that our couple of days of diving did.

It would be wonderful to have an "agency" which was commited to a better way of diving, but how do you inform the public that it is better?? I think that the structure of such a course should take you from the basic stuff in skin diving up to scuba and then improve on that. I dont think the course should include more "advanced" stuff like nitrox or anything beyond skills neccessary for the divers to be able to dive safely (for themselves, the environment and the other divers) - good buoyancy, trim, and anti-silting kicks being very useful! The courses available most places seem to either be a weekend/two weeks with a day or so pool time and 4/5 OW dives, or the same amount of class/pool/OW time spread over a few more weeks (judging from what i have heard, the total hours are approx the same). A better course would spend more time in each section, teaching, pool and OW (possibly even a few more dives - 6?) to really get the student aclimated to diving and able to practice and be critiqued by their instructor.

Maybe also the course would cost what it is worth rather than be a cost leader in anticipation of equipment sales (i know some instructors arent affiliated to a LDS - like GDI) - then maybe we could follow the example of a lawyer's advert around here about nursing home abuse (not quite diving, but stay with me), that the staff should be paid a proper wage, nanny cameras should used and they wont have to worry about being sued by disgruntled families. The analogy is that the instructors are paid better (by LDS), so they might want to teach better - particularly if they are given incentive by LDS, cameras could be used to critique diving style - this is very useful in other sports, why not diving?, and of course the disgruntled students who realised they werent being taught properly (assuming they are informed of this), would no longer be disgruntled and would give repeat business to them, rather than moving off like i have done from my OW LDS!

Well this is all very ideal, but how do you make it work and tell the public that you offer a course that is better than joe down the road who is offering the PADI weekend course for $99??

 

[DrySuitDave]

What do you expect for $250!? I charge more then that per hour of my time......the instructors aren't making any money, the LDS isn't making money either-this is a hobby where the instructor, store and dive boat axis is lucky to pay their bills and break even. It is a classist example of how any LDS operator who makes more money than the usual poverty level is smacked down as a "rip-off".

 

[WillAbbott]

The O2 clock...
Neither PADI or IANTD introduces surface interval credit entry level nitrox.

The reason is simple, It's almost impossible to get any where near 100% on the clock while diving within recreational limits. Therefore it's just treated as a daily limit.

Another point worth mentioning is that "time" is a poor predictor of CNS tox. While computers do give SI credit, different computers use different half times. Some decompression software lets you choose the half time.

In technical diving you need to consider surface time because it's very easy to blow away the 100% limit on a single.

Good point. I just feel that maybe they should change it to something like that the surface interval time IS known, but for this level class, it is information that isn't needed or would confuse. I mean after hearing them say it's not known, and seeing so many computers give surface credit, I was like, "WHOAH, I'm not buying this computer, because it gives credit for an unkown item" In a way I feel it is misseducation. Not to mention I could see getting pretty darn close to the limits, IF a diver dove within 1.4ata at either a shallow depth, for for very long dives. Going of my O2 exposure chart, the 100% mark is 150mins, or 180 for the entire day... if we divide by 2, the result is 90mins for 24hour period, or 75 for the 150min time... which theres no way I could do in 2 dives with an AL80... but in 35feet of water were talking pretty close (course 1.4ata with 40% or less O2 aint happening), however if divided by 3, were get numbers of 60 and 50mins per dive for 3 dives in a day, That I can do with a 1.4 ata, I can do 40mins at 80feet on an AL80 (sure not at 80 feet the whole dive, but we have to figgure it as if we have been at the same depth the entire dive, unless we keep track of levels) so I can see getting close to or hitting the 100% mark, esspecially if diving close to or at the 1.4ata point on every dive, for 3-4dives in a day, and esspecially if using something larger than an 80cubic foot tank.

Just my oppinion, don't want to "hijack" this thread.


Good point that neither teaches that at the beggining nitrox, just that after hearing there is a credit for surface interval, I feel lied to, and misinformed.. and I HATE finding out something a class told me is false.

 

[simbrooks]

Firstly, new thread for nitrox courses, i understand the mis-information, it happens in a lot of areas of education, you are told something isnt right/wont work at one level and as you advance you find things that arent what you were originally told - i too hate that.

Secondly, are we talking of OW courses, any courses or a general aim of a new "agency"?

I will continue with the idea of the OW course as it is how almost all divers come into diving (apart from those who kind of grandfathered in during the 50-80's). Anything beyond OW would be approached in a similar manner - but its the basics that help the future learning to more productive/efficient.

How much would a better OW course be to make ends meet for the instructors, LDS and whatever overhead the "agency" requires. BTW, how much of a cut do the agencies get from the training prices?

I am ashamed to say that we got taught for about that price, and look what we were given, we only had price, length and a load of web searching of LDS's to decide thru. Like i said in the post, how do you inform future divers who are looking into an OW course? Once a diver gets certified they can find useful info such as can be found on this board and make a more informed decision by choosing something that will help them dive better. Maybe this board should advertise, although the info on here isnt instruction, it does often get you thinking in new ways and informs you of what you might want to know/investigate. Also it answers your questions when others fail you or your training didnt answer it.

 

[Genesis]

Let's postulate a few things....

1. Nobody is going to pay more unless they "get more". You have to convince a person intending to learn to dive that they will "get more", or you will fail at getting them to pay more (both in money and time) over the "standard" 3-day wonder courses.

2. The value equation must be concrete and obvious to the prospective student. You simply cannot sell "good trim", because a student doesn't know why that matters until AFTER they learn how to dive!

So let's take these postulates and design a new OW class, shall we?

First, let's figure out what the standards would be. Let's start here:

1. Horizontal trim at all times while skills are performed.

2. Neutral buoyancy must be maintained while skills are performed.

3. Unguided (e.g. no resorting to a line, the bottom, or the surface!) ascents and decents must be performed.

4. We will stop calling dives "no-deco" dives, as that is dishonest, and instead call them "NSR" (no stop required) dives. ALL dives are decompression dives. Since we will admit this, we will also cover basic decompression theory, and give the student enough information for them to have a shot at getting out of the water and not be bent if they overstay their welcome. This is not a deco class per-se, but let's stop scaring people unnecessarily, ok?

5. We will stop the voodoo about "air" .vs. "enriched air." Indeed, we will explain why "deep air" is stupid - that is, narcosis AND O2 tox issues. Since we've now destroyed the "mysticism" of all nitrogen based gasses, we will include Nitrox (to 40%) in our "OW" class, since Nitrox is made up of those same gasses.

6. We will stop the voodoo about depth. Depth is really controlled by gas supply, redundancy, narcosis and O2 tox concerns - not some arbitrary number. Instead of an arbitrary number, we will teach what controls a "maximum safe depth" for a given dive site, conditions, gas supply and gas composition. At least one of our dives will be done beyond 60'.

7. We will teach diving in a dry suit. Even in tropical waters! Why? Because if you can dive dry, you can dive wet. The converse is not true. Drysuits are a good thing in water that is not tropical-warm, and most divers either learn in or dive in water that isn't tropical warm at some point. Let's be comfortable (warm is safer than cold, by the way - see the DCS and deco conversation we're going to have above!) Inexpensive shell suits are available AND DUI has solved the "seal problem" with the zip system! In real warm water you can dive dry in your underwear or a bathing suit. Let's teach the universal exposure protection system, which just happens to require the most care to use, and let's do so in a pool first, where screwups are funny instead of dangerous.

8. We will include a night/limited viz dive in our OW class. Why? Because you'll probably want to (eventually) do one, or you will do one unintentionally when someone who DIDN'T take this class silts out your dive site!

9. We will stop the voodoo about equipment. Regulators are simple folks. BCs are even simpler! While we will not teach people how to REBUILD a reg, we WILL strip one in front of the class and show EXACTLY how it works. Why? Because you damn well ought to know what some of the common problems are, understand the basics of how your gear works, and be able to make an informed go/nogo decision on the condition of your gear at any point in time! Is this important? You bet it is - in fact, you BET YOUR LIFE on this every time you get in the water!

10. This class will require a lot more dives and a lot more pool time than it takes now. I can't see this class being able to be taught in less than 10-12 actual dives, and for some people it will take quite a few more. Nonetheless, we will not set dive minimums - we will instead set performance bars that must be met. Further, we will prove for posterity, liability, insurance (and for the enjoyment of our students and their friends) the actual skill level of each diver we produce - the skill dives will all be videotaped and reduced to DVD, with a copy retained and a copy given to the student as their "graduation certificate." There will be no "cheating", since the skill levels will be documented visually. Either you can dive or you can't - no "maybes"; video doesn't lie.

Now what will we end up here with this?

Go back and count 'em folks. There are five "specialties" in the above list. Nitrox, PPB, Night/Limited-Vis, Dry, Deep.

Why is this important? Because our OW card will be the equivalent of an AOW and Nitrox!

Now you have the "value" proposition.

Will this class be more expensive? It sure as hell will! But what will you GET? You will have an AOW+Nitrox equivalent, and more importantly, you will know how to DIVE - not just breathe compressed air underwater.

How's this sound?

Are 'ya a current instructor? Interested in something like this? Let's talk - I'm seriously considering putting the bizness side of this together.

 

[neil]

How's this sound?
Are 'ya a current instructor? Interested in something like this? Let's talk - I'm seriously considering putting the bizness side of this together.

It sounds great, seriously. I don't know what you mean about setting up the business side of it, I can teach this course right now. But as you say, how can you convince people of the value. What you propose is at minimum, a 60 hour course. 4 full days of diving OW, maybe 15 hours in the pool, 12 in the classroom. I don't think it's a $$ issue, it's convincing people that they will emerge from this better trained than the average dive student and to devote the time to it.
Neil

 

[Jambi]

Genesis, I like the idea. Would it also include minimization and streamlining techniques? Sounds like something I would signup for. Seems that current divers recommending the course would be the biggest selling point for the program. What would price be? $900-$1300 price range sounds fair (I could be way off here :ne_nau: ). If a program like this was available in my area it would be the one I would get my wife into.

Jambi