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neil:
It sounds great, seriously. I don't know what you mean about setting up the business side of it, I can teach this course right now. But as you say, how can you convince people of the value. What you propose is at minimum, a 60 hour course. 4 full days of diving OW, maybe 15 hours in the pool, 12 in the classroom. I don't think it's a $$ issue, it's convincing people that they will emerge from this better trained than the average dive student and to devote the time to it.
Neil

Yes you can teach but you don't have to. Not all the students who go to your agency are guaranteed that level of education and mastery. The instructor or shop down the street could issue the exact same car and provide far less education and charge wat less for it.
 
Genesis:
How's this sound?

Sounds great Gen.

Thats the beginnings of the nuts and bolts of it and it would be a worth while course, if you can sell it. How do you sell it?

Scott
 
Genesis:
Let's postulate a few things....

1. Nobody is going to pay more unless they "get more". You have to convince a person intending to learn to dive that they will "get more", or you will fail at getting them to pay more (both in money and time) over the "standard" 3-day wonder courses.

It might make sense to package a course like this one at an hourly rate, instead of following the current pay upfront "discount structure".
-Dave
 
I would have loved to have taken the class that you have laid out and would have been more than happy to put in more hours in class time to do it. I got OW certified in August and almost immediately after I did AOW and Nitrox so the idea for your class makes sense to me. The only issue I have with it is item #7 about the drysuits. This would be very costly either to the LDS or to the student. If I had to buy a drysuit to get certified, I probably would not have done it and I have yet to find any shops that have a drysuit off the rack that I could try on (I am 6'1" with a 56" chest and 44" waist). I would like to get a dry suit but for the time being it will have to wait after having spent a few thousand on my other kit.


7. We will teach diving in a dry suit. Even in tropical waters! Why? Because if you can dive dry, you can dive wet. The converse is not true. Drysuits are a good thing in water that is not tropical-warm, and most divers either learn in or dive in water that isn't tropical warm at some point. Let's be comfortable (warm is safer than cold, by the way - see the DCS and deco conversation we're going to have above!) Inexpensive shell suits are available AND DUI has solved the "seal problem" with the zip system! In real warm water you can dive dry in your underwear or a bathing suit. Let's teach the universal exposure protection system, which just happens to require the most care to use, and let's do so in a pool first, where screwups are funny instead of dangerous.

TTSkipper
 
A student that wants this class will either have to (1) buy the drysuit, or (2) take the class through a LDS that rents them.

Perfect fit is not required, but servicable fit is. Most of us can manage "servicable" fit if we can do so with a wetsuit!

If you learn to dive dry with the suit ONLY for exposure protection, then being a bit loose is not a big deal.

Yes, streamlining is part of it, and you'd have the option of either a long hose or "traditional" setup, along with the option for a BP+W, etc.

I suspect that most divers, particularly when the options are explained to them (remember, we're going to do a night dive!) and their impact on their comfort, will choose a BP/long-hose setup, if for no other reason than being able to use a can light (even if its a relatively inexpensive halogen one); the light-head-on-a-handle is SO much nicer that once you use THAT you'll never be satisfied with less again.

What I meant about the "bizness" side is that I'm investigating forming just such an agency....
 
As I mentioned, I would love to have done the class in a drysuit since I live in the North East but I do not think that most LDS would have a rental that woul be a 3XL which is typically what a 56" chest would be. As for the BP+W, that is what I purchased for my 1st BC after renting many other BCs to try. A canister light and long hoses are my next purchases.

TTSkipper

Genesis:
A student that wants this class will either have to (1) buy the drysuit, or (2) take the class through a LDS that rents them.

Perfect fit is not required, but servicable fit is. Most of us can manage "servicable" fit if we can do so with a wetsuit!

If you learn to dive dry with the suit ONLY for exposure protection, then being a bit loose is not a big deal.

Yes, streamlining is part of it, and you'd have the option of either a long hose or "traditional" setup, along with the option for a BP+W, etc.

I suspect that most divers, particularly when the options are explained to them (remember, we're going to do a night dive!) and their impact on their comfort, will choose a BP/long-hose setup, if for no other reason than being able to use a can light (even if its a relatively inexpensive halogen one); the light-head-on-a-handle is SO much nicer that once you use THAT you'll never be satisfied with less again.

What I meant about the "bizness" side is that I'm investigating forming just such an agency....
 
First off I would like to say that I would have loved to have taken a class like this. But I would have never known I needed a class like that until after I already took the class. When I got certified I paid $900 for a private class for 3 of us, and was very happy with my instructor and the class. Others have tried to offer a class similar to this I believe Mike Ferarra, and it didn't work out, not because what he was doing was wrong, but like Mike said trying to convince someone that your class is worth 4-5 times more than the bargain basement lds down the street ain't gonna happen. People today only care about the bottom line $$$, quality will soon be a thing of the past, if it isn't already. It really sux, and it is not just confined to diving. you would have to most likely get to the people who have already been certified and care enough to progress their skills. Like gue does.
 
Look above at what you'd get with this class.

More and more sites are requiring AOW cards, and Nitrox is certainly useful too.

What Mike was doing is difficult - very difficult - to sell - because you get the "same" OW card that you get from the "3 day wonder" classes. There is no difference in the credential, so trying to sell the "better class" is almost impossible. Its impossible BECAUSE you can't make the value proposition with nebulous claims that a would-be diver can't verify.

WE know that trim and buoyancy are important. The "would be" diver just sees more work, more pain, more cost and more trouble. If he gets the same card as the guy who stands on the bottom, why does he care? For most such divers, he doesn't and won't pay, because he perceives that he gets nothing better. It is only after the money has been spent that he understands - but then its too late!

This would be VERY different. You'd have an "advanced" card, you'd have Nitrox, you'd have credentials for night, limited visability, deep, and drysuit diving. All of this would be rolled into the same class.

If you priced ALL those things SEPARATELY, you'd spend at least as much or possibly MORE than you'd spend on this class, yet you'd get less.

THAT is how the value equation can be made to work - and how it can be sold. IMHO it has to be able to be made to work, or you'll never be able to sell it.

I think this class WOULD sell to a new diver, once all this is explained. All the explanation required would be some video taken at a local dive site (e.g. a quarry) of the "typical" OW diver, then of one of the early graduates of this class.

A picture is worth a thousand words, and a movie is worth 10,000.

Consider the "newbie" who would like to dive the Spiegel Grove. Today, he can't. He is FORCED into buying an AOW cert at minimum, and will want a Nitrox one as well (a "bounce" for 10 minutes kinda bites when you can do 20 instead!) Suddenly his "dive trip" gets real expensive AND he blows three days on a class before he can do his "magic dive."

With this cert he can do all of the above. He can walk into any dive shop and rent a dry suit, book a night dive, go on any of the recreational boats, including those that want to see an AOW card, get a Nitrox fill if he wants, etc.

Basically, the entirety of "recreational diving" is open to this person - with one certification. Not just warm caribbean-style waters at 30', but also deep, cold, wrecks (outside only please!) with enough knowledge and skill to dive those things with reasonably safety. There is only a formal "rescue" class left for this diver and he has the full cornucopia of "recreational" certs in his hand!

In addition, this diver will have good trim and buoyancy, which means they'll enjoy the dive more. We know that, but you can't sell that, because a would-be-diver has no concept of how important that is or why you want it.

I understand that the "drysuit" part brings some challenges for shops - and divers. IMHO those challenges are essential to resolve; again, how many people NEVER dive in conditions where a drysuit would be nice? Hell, I live in Florida and there are plenty of times that I want my drysuit!

Up north I can't conceive of diving without one.

How serious ARE those challenges? Inexpensive drysuits are not difficult to source, and frankly, they're also not THAT much more expensive than a GOOD wetsuit, especially for cold water. A 2 piece 7mil cold-water wetsuit will easily set you back $300 or so. An inexpensive but VERY servicable drysuit can be had for $500 (Bare Nex-Gen), and that's not the dealer's cost - that's what you can BUY it for. So what's cost on this thing? $300 or so? Probably. Since the shop/instructor can actually make a decent amount of money on this class, can we not give the diver a deal on the suit? Sure we can, or we can rent it to him for the class. I bet most of the students will happily buy it, once they consider the options. Let 'em try the two-piece 7mil if they want on one dive - I bet most people will RUN to the dry option given the choice.
 
My biggest issue with the way training is done, is that they don't actually require the skills. They require the tools and call it the skills. For example, the ever popular fin pivot. What in diving requires a fin pivot? It's a _tool_ to teach you about the breath control as it relates to bouyancy control. However it is _not_ bouyancy control. If you have a student that is lacking in the trim skill, but decent with the bouyancy control thing, giving them a drill that throws trim out the window to teach breath control does nothing to aid the person that needs help with trim and _not_ breath control. Sure, it's more common that they will have both issues, but there are situations where that isn't the case, and requiring a _drill_ that isn't a skill is completely counter productive to being able to teach someone something. You _need_ to be able to adjust and adapt for the students personal strength and weaknesses.

Skills are things like neutral bouyancy and trim. You should be able to lay prone in the water without using your fins and without fipping up vertically. If you have trouble with the bouyancy, then the fin pivot is one tool an instructor can use to teach you the things you need to get to the skill. However if the trim part is the issue, then you need a _different_ tool to teach them about _that_ part.

They water down the courses to a point where they have a few drills they call skills, and those drills get most of the people somewhat competant in the water, but it's a watered down, populous approach.

By giving them a specific set of drills, you aren't an instuctor, you're a chaperone and tour guide walking them through a progression. There is no concept of a bag of tricks to get the person from never done it, to being proficent at a skill, where the path to that skill was catered by the instructor, to the student, with the drills given being specifically focused on their weaknesses.

Well, or.. I should say "It is my opinion from what I've observed.... not being an instructor or seeing first hand what instructors are truely supposed to do"
 
Spectre:
By giving them a specific set of drills, you aren't an instuctor, you're a chaperone and tour guide walking them through a progression.

You might not be an instructor but you're understanding of the situation is correct, IMO.

You don't have to be a master chef to prepare food at McDonalds. Likewise, all you need bo do to teach a diving course today is be an administrator and babysitter. They have to train instructors quickly too and in this way they can.
 
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