Let The revolution Begin!

[TTSkipper]

What is to stop a shop/instructor from running the class that you suggest Genesis under one of the existing agencies? I would think that most if not all of the suggestions you have would fit within the basic curriculum of a PADI, NAUI, SSI, etc., I am not an instructor for any of these agencies so I do not know this for sure. You could then teach the class you want and give them the cards from the existing agency, even if you taught the class in the basic order the agency wants, I do not think that they would stop you from adding things to the classes if it means that the divers that will be coming out of the agency will be better. For example if NAUI required 8 hours class time, 8 hours pool time and 4 open water dives, I can not see them having an issue with 20 hours class time, 20 hours pool time and 6 open water dives.

I think that if a shop could educate the student coming for certification enough with marketing materials etc. that the class would be in their best interest it could work.

TTSkipper

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I got a good deal in college as I took a PADI OW course one semester and the AOW the next. Since it was for credit with a requirement for a minimum number of hours we had a classroom session and a pool or open water session every week for 16 weeks.

Consequently we had 15 pool sessions before the 4 check dives and we all had at least a dozen open water dives in various lakes and quarries in the AOW class before we did the 4 check dives. So both courses were long on academics, gas laws and theory and also long on developing and practicing in the water skills. I was a better diver after those 2 semesters than many divers who had been diving for years and the cost was the normal PADI course fee plus the cost of the college credit, which at the current in state tuition rate would add another $350 or so to the OW and AOW fees.

I think it is an excellent format for a scuba course where an instructor can really teach skills and then ensure everybody actually masters them. But as pointed out above, the problem will be getting people to commit the time to the course, not necesarilly the cost.

 

[Genesis]

What is to stop a shop/instructor from running the class that you suggest Genesis under one of the existing agencies? I would think that most if not all of the suggestions you have would fit within the basic curriculum of a PADI, NAUI, SSI, etc., I am not an instructor for any of these agencies so I do not know this for sure. You could then teach the class you want and give them the cards from the existing agency, even if you taught the class in the basic order the agency wants, I do not think that they would stop you from adding things to the classes if it means that the divers that will be coming out of the agency will be better. For example if NAUI required 8 hours class time, 8 hours pool time and 4 open water dives, I can not see them having an issue with 20 hours class time, 20 hours pool time and 6 open water dives.

I think that if a shop could educate the student coming for certification enough with marketing materials etc. that the class would be in their best interest it could work.

TTSkipper

Nothing prevents it except that nobody does so.

So, there's no prohibition - but I think that nothing is going to change in the existing agencies, as the shops don't like the idea one bit either, and they and the agencies are driving this.

I suspect that the only way to make this happen is to set up an agency with this as the defined goal....

 

[Scott M]

What Mike was doing is difficult - very difficult - to sell - because you get the "same" OW card that you get from the "3 day wonder" classes. There is no difference in the credential, so trying to sell the "better class" is almost impossible. Its impossible BECAUSE you can't make the value proposition with nebulous claims that a would-be diver can't verify.

Getting that point across to a prospective diver would be a challenge but not impossible. The value/cost could easily be justified.

Getting the prospective diver to even realise this type of service is even available is another story entirely. A friend of mine has been diving since the early 60's, he has only recently heard of NAUI and has never heard of DIR or GUE or anything of the sort. He just laughs when I explain it to him.

It is only after the money has been spent that he understands - but then its too late!

Few if any new OW divers realise there is more to diving than what they were taught at OW class. Until I found SB I thought I had done everything right. Actually I thought I had gone way over and above simply by getting private classes.

This would be VERY different. You'd have an "advanced" card, you'd have Nitrox, you'd have credentials for night, limited visability, deep, and drysuit diving. All of this would be rolled into the same class.

If you priced ALL those things SEPARATELY, you'd spend at least as much or possibly MORE than you'd spend on this class, yet you'd get less.

THAT is how the value equation can be made to work - and how it can be sold. IMHO it has to be able to be made to work, or you'll never be able to sell it.

I think this class WOULD sell to a new diver, once all this is explained. All the explanation required would be some video taken at a local dive site (e.g. a quarry) of the "typical" OW diver, then of one of the early graduates of this class.

Although the course you propose would be the wisest course of action for a prospective diver to take, getting that information out to that segment of the market may present quite the challenge.

A picture is worth a thousand words, and a movie is worth 10,000.

Consider the "newbie" who would like to dive the Spiegel Grove. Today, he can't. He is FORCED into buying an AOW cert at minimum, and will want a Nitrox one as well (a "bounce" for 10 minutes kinda bites when you can do 20 instead!) Suddenly his "dive trip" gets real expensive AND he blows three days on a class before he can do his "magic dive."

With this cert he can do all of the above. He can walk into any dive shop and rent a dry suit, book a night dive, go on any of the recreational boats, including those that want to see an AOW card, get a Nitrox fill if he wants, etc.

Basically, the entirety of "recreational diving" is open to this person - with one certification. Not just warm caribbean-style waters at 30', but also deep, cold, wrecks (outside only please!) with enough knowledge and skill to dive those things with reasonably safety. There is only a formal "rescue" class left for this diver and he has the full cornucopia of "recreational" certs in his hand!

In addition, this diver will have good trim and buoyancy, which means they'll enjoy the dive more. We know that, but you can't sell that, because a would-be-diver has no concept of how important that is or why you want it.

No question the course would be very rewarding. It's a great idea.

I understand that the "drysuit" part brings some challenges for shops - and divers. IMHO those challenges are essential to resolve; again, how many people NEVER dive in conditions where a drysuit would be nice? Hell, I live in Florida and there are plenty of times that I want my drysuit!

Up north I can't conceive of diving without one.

How serious ARE those challenges? Inexpensive drysuits are not difficult to source, and frankly, they're also not THAT much more expensive than a GOOD wetsuit, especially for cold water. A 2 piece 7mil cold-water wetsuit will easily set you back $300 or so. An inexpensive but VERY servicable drysuit can be had for $500 (Bare Nex-Gen), and that's not the dealer's cost - that's what you can BUY it for. So what's cost on this thing? $300 or so? Probably. Since the shop/instructor can actually make a decent amount of money on this class, can we not give the diver a deal on the suit? Sure we can, or we can rent it to him for the class. I bet most of the students will happily buy it, once they consider the options. Let 'em try the two-piece 7mil if they want on one dive - I bet most people will RUN to the dry option given the choice.

Anyone interested in a course such as this will find the resources to accomplish it. I don't believe this will be all that hard to sell "once" people are made aware that this is available.


Just my thoughts
Scott

 

[dferg77]

I for one would be very interested. As a person who has yet to even be ow certified I would love to find a class like this. Is a possibilty that as in a previous reply that an lds might be willing to do this. I have been reading almost every thread on this board for about two months and have learned way more than i thought possible. after reading here for awhile i talked to my local lds (only one) about some of the things that i had learned (dir,bp/w,etc) he looked at me like i was crazy. since i have been looking a other shops in the "area". If one of them was to offer a class like this and had the attitude that i have come expect ( after reading this board ) I would jump all over it.

just another opionion.

 

[roakey]

Where are you located (you might want to add this to your profile)?

Roak

 

[WaterWorld]

Let's postulate a few things....

1. Nobody is going to pay more unless they "get more". You have to convince a person intending to learn to dive that they will "get more", or you will fail at getting them to pay more (both in money and time) over the "standard" 3-day wonder courses.

2. The value equation must be concrete and obvious to the prospective student. You simply cannot sell "good trim", because a student doesn't know why that matters until AFTER they learn how to dive!

So let's take these postulates and design a new OW class, shall we?

First, let's figure out what the standards would be. Let's start here:

1. Horizontal trim at all times while skills are performed.

2. Neutral buoyancy must be maintained while skills are performed.

3. Unguided (e.g. no resorting to a line, the bottom, or the surface!) ascents and decents must be performed.

4. We will stop calling dives "no-deco" dives, as that is dishonest, and instead call them "NSR" (no stop required) dives. ALL dives are decompression dives. Since we will admit this, we will also cover basic decompression theory, and give the student enough information for them to have a shot at getting out of the water and not be bent if they overstay their welcome. This is not a deco class per-se, but let's stop scaring people unnecessarily, ok?

5. We will stop the voodoo about "air" .vs. "enriched air." Indeed, we will explain why "deep air" is stupid - that is, narcosis AND O2 tox issues. Since we've now destroyed the "mysticism" of all nitrogen based gasses, we will include Nitrox (to 40%) in our "OW" class, since Nitrox is made up of those same gasses.

6. We will stop the voodoo about depth. Depth is really controlled by gas supply, redundancy, narcosis and O2 tox concerns - not some arbitrary number. Instead of an arbitrary number, we will teach what controls a "maximum safe depth" for a given dive site, conditions, gas supply and gas composition. At least one of our dives will be done beyond 60'.

7. We will teach diving in a dry suit. Even in tropical waters! Why? Because if you can dive dry, you can dive wet. The converse is not true. Drysuits are a good thing in water that is not tropical-warm, and most divers either learn in or dive in water that isn't tropical warm at some point. Let's be comfortable (warm is safer than cold, by the way - see the DCS and deco conversation we're going to have above!) Inexpensive shell suits are available AND DUI has solved the "seal problem" with the zip system! In real warm water you can dive dry in your underwear or a bathing suit. Let's teach the universal exposure protection system, which just happens to require the most care to use, and let's do so in a pool first, where screwups are funny instead of dangerous.

8. We will include a night/limited viz dive in our OW class. Why? Because you'll probably want to (eventually) do one, or you will do one unintentionally when someone who DIDN'T take this class silts out your dive site!

9. We will stop the voodoo about equipment. Regulators are simple folks. BCs are even simpler! While we will not teach people how to REBUILD a reg, we WILL strip one in front of the class and show EXACTLY how it works. Why? Because you damn well ought to know what some of the common problems are, understand the basics of how your gear works, and be able to make an informed go/nogo decision on the condition of your gear at any point in time! Is this important? You bet it is - in fact, you BET YOUR LIFE on this every time you get in the water!

10. This class will require a lot more dives and a lot more pool time than it takes now. I can't see this class being able to be taught in less than 10-12 actual dives, and for some people it will take quite a few more. Nonetheless, we will not set dive minimums - we will instead set performance bars that must be met. Further, we will prove for posterity, liability, insurance (and for the enjoyment of our students and their friends) the actual skill level of each diver we produce - the skill dives will all be videotaped and reduced to DVD, with a copy retained and a copy given to the student as their "graduation certificate." There will be no "cheating", since the skill levels will be documented visually. Either you can dive or you can't - no "maybes"; video doesn't lie.

Now what will we end up here with this?

Go back and count 'em folks. There are five "specialties" in the above list. Nitrox, PPB, Night/Limited-Vis, Dry, Deep.

Why is this important? Because our OW card will be the equivalent of an AOW and Nitrox!

Now you have the "value" proposition.

Will this class be more expensive? It sure as hell will! But what will you GET? You will have an AOW+Nitrox equivalent, and more importantly, you will know how to DIVE - not just breathe compressed air underwater.

How's this sound?

Are 'ya a current instructor? Interested in something like this? Let's talk - I'm seriously considering putting the bizness side of this together.

Genesis, I like what your talking about, if I was interested in taking the above Course Of Instruction, and I only got an "OW" card out of the deal I might tell you to pack sand. However, if after finishing your COI I also got "AOW" "Basic Nitrox" and a "Dry Suit" card then I might walk up to you and offer you $2,000 because now I would be qualified to dive where I wanted. Not just get turned away baised on the fact that I only have "your super ow card" and needed an AOW card to get on the boat no matter if I had the skills to make me an AOW diver or not. See the difference? I can spend $500 and go from 0 to hero in 2 weekends and be sitting next to your student on the next boat, but oh, wait they don't have an AOW card and the dive operator won't let them on. Too bad even though no doubt he is the better diver. Just my thought. Good luck with your plan. Your on to something, just have to prove to the guy that is not "in love" with diving yet that taking the time with your class and forking out the extra $$ is worth it.

WW

 

[Genesis]

Yep.

That is indeed the problem.

However, there is a solution. Offer the same "resort course" that everyone else does. You ought to be able to figure out if you like being wet that way, and its trivial enough that crediting it towards the "real deal" works too.

 

[WaterWorld]

Well GENESIS I guess it would boil down to location location location. Getting 3 cards and the skills to use them to their max potential would be worth using my cell phone to call your shop while I was on a SI WW

 

[GDI]

Ok I can see that we have some different ideas going here. Lets break it down and start at the basic OW level training academics. Here is my suggestion for a starting point (a draft if you will)

Basic Requirements
Swimming Ability and Watermanship
Physical Status with Medical History
Expectations and Attitude
Examinations

Physics
Breathing Gases, Pressure/Density/Volumn Relationships, General Gas Law, Dalton, Henry, Charles, Boyles, Gas Mixtures (enriched air), Temperature Effects, Humidity, Buoyancy (Archamedies), Viscosity, Illumination, Vision, Acoustics, Thermal Qualities, Fundamentals of Compressed Gases as related to diving, Compressor Operation and Cascade Systems, Characteristics of Cylinder Materials and Fabrication, Characteristics of Thermal Protection Materials

Underwater Physiology
Direct/Indirect Effects of Pressure, Respiratory and Pulmonary Functions, Cardiac Function, CNS and Pressure, Effects of Narcosis, DCS: Contributating Causes and Treatments/Avoidance, Henry's and Boyles Laws and how it Effects the Human Body, Body Mechanics:Kinesiology, Buoyancy, Equalization: The Sinuses and Ear Mechanism

Equipment
Basic Equipment Requirements, Selecting and Purchasing Equipment, Equipment Configuration, Minimizing and Streamlining, Thermal Protection: Determining the Environmental Requirements, Diving Tools: Selection, Securing and Application, Instrumentation and Computers,Maintenance and Repairing Procedures, Functions and Design of a Regulator, BCD, SPG, Depth Gauge, Compass: USE and Navigation Techniques, Compressed Gas Cylinders: Inspections and Maintenance, Compressor Maintenance and Inspection Cycles, Open Circuit Scuba, Semi-Closed Circuit Scuba, Closed Circuit Scuba, Helmet Diving

Accident Analysis
Diving within Your Limitations, Buddy System Procedures, Rescue and Search Procedures: Self Reliance - Buddy Reliance, When Good Goes Bad, Prevention: Dive Planning, General First Aid, CPR and Oxygen Provision, Calling for Help, Dive Safety, Marine Life Injuries, Pressure Related Injuries or Illness, Correcting or Handling the Problem

The Environment
Training for Overhead Environments, Marine Life Identification: Avoidance and Contact, Low Vizibility and Dark Water Diving, Boat Diving Procedures, Shore Diving, Cold Weather Diving, Reading the Water: Waves, Tides and Currents, Entries and Exits, Weather General

Planning The Dive
The Individual Habits, Buddy Protocols, Communication Systems Below and Above Water, Emergency Procedures, Types of Diving, Dive Table Development and Theory, Dive Table Comparison (US Navy, Enriched Air, DCIEM, etc), Decompression Theories and Practices: Accepting the Risk, Repetitive Dive Planning, Tables and Computer Assisted Diving, Breathing Consumption Rates and Gas Planning Procedures, Dive Plan Violation Protocols, Conducting the dive.


Ok so these are some of the topics I feel that divers need to understand to effectively be a safe diver. I will be looking at the skills later. Comments Please