Let The revolution Begin!

[MikeFerrara]

Any PADI members been to the update? During the Risk Management portion, they show video dramatization of the deep dive from Adventures in Diving (AOW) These are AOW students on their last AOW dive, and after descending along a line, set just short of the bottom to avoid stirring up silt.
Both students and instructor kneel on the bottom to check their SPGs and trade OK signals before starting their tour, then do it again upon returning to the line prior to surfacing. There is an incident after that, and during the dramatization of the depositions, and the discussion both in the video and from the presenter, there is not a hint that this kneeling on the bottom is anything but normal.

I haven't been to an update in a couple years. As of the first of this year I'm no longer a member. I'm done argueing this with them and I don't care to be embarassed by their learn to kneel videos any more. They honestly don't see what's wrong with teaching divers to lay all over the bottom.

I just received an email that's a reprint of their response to some one asking about all the kneeling in the DSAT tec rec program. I don't want to post it here because it's like 4th hand now but it's pretty unbelievable.

For the record, I don't think the other recreational agencies are doing any better in this regard. The bc is only 30 or so years old and doesn't seem to have worked it's way into mainstream training yet. LOL

Eventually they'll figure out that with a bc you don't have to kneel and that controling position in the water is a primary skill and not an after thought to spend 5 minutes on.

 

[PhotoTJ]

No, the empirical evidence is that they don't. At member updates and in internal publications, PADI contsantly laments that most 90% of open water students do not seek any further training, ever. Most people do not want knowledge or education, they want the benefits that people with knowledge and education have, without having to put forth the mental effort. Otherwise we wouldn't have an education crisis in this country. Most people are perfectly content to be lousy divers, as long as it doesn't bar them from diving, so they can say they've done it before moving on to bungee jumping, or whatever the next trendy thing on their list is.

This hits the nail, dead on! I am a photographer, by profession, like most artists, I have to supplement my income from time to time. (Thankfully that is happening less and less.) I usually work retail, more often than not in a camera store. I have people come in 2-3 times a week, with a brand new camera, still in the box, saying, "I bought/got this for xmas/birthday/graduation, show me how to work it." When I ask if it came with an owners manual, they always respond, "Yes, but I don't have time for that. Show me how to work it." I sit, and read the manual, and tell them what it says. The last few times I have told them that I will be happy to come to their house, and give them two hours of instruction, for $50 an hour. They didn't have time for that, either. Fortunatly, Professor of Photography is not in the job discription, and my bosses see it that way, as well.

People don't want to learn how to do something, they just want to do it. This is going to sound mind-blowingly cruel and insensitive, but we need to stop making stupid people take steps to protect themselves, from themselves. George Carlin says it best, "The kid who swallows too many marbles isn't supposed to survive!" Society would be much better off if we quit protecting the stupid gene from itself.

 

[GDI]

GDI, are you requiring all divers to now take a full medical (rather than self-certify that they're free of a various list of diseases and disorders, and only if the answer is "YES" to one of THOSE questions take a medical)?

IMHO that's overreaching and unlikely to get very far, not to mention that finding hyperbaric physicians is not all that easy. Further, in this day and age of HMOs and PPOs you might be able to find one, but they will be "out of network" and this is likely to be seen as "unnecessary" by your insurer, meaning you eat the entire thing out of pocket.

I can see this for instructors, but for divers?

No just self answered. If a "yes" is noted then the Dr.'s signature

 

[GDI]

sounds pretty expensive to me. lets see if you dont like the way i use my fins then for another 25 bucks i will get aome time to perfect it with your 150.00 finns in your store. if i just cant get the gear off of a distressed diver for another 75 i will get some more hours to perfect that.

if the problem is that lds's and instructors are in it for the bucks then this does not fix that problem. enentually when enough spend the 1k for training befor extra sessions, and they can only acomplish 90% of it and quit because they are not interested in rescue or nitrox ect., then what will that do for wade reputation. i know what i would say...they got my thousand bucks made me buy thier gear and looked for reasons to not issue a cert. no cert no liability. no dead wade divers. of course if you refunded the money that would be different but that cant be in the plan. you would refund too much. you would have to bend the rules to keep the money. and now things have gone full circle with wade baing near equal to padi and others. not to mention why pay a grand for what you can get for 1/5 the price. a hundred certified wade divers and that is great...a couple of less than satisfied wade weed outs and later certified padi grads wipes them all out in the world of PR. lastly perfection as a minimum standard destroys not builds confidence. there is no where to go but down.

KWS

I don't see that this class would be any more costly then any other class. First my post was targeting the DM who would like to be a WADE instructor, Secondly the OW student should be expected to achieve an acceptable level of profficiency before receiving their c-card. This does not suggest perfection but rather just a higher level of proficiency is expected. Example they can hover and are trimmed, they are not kicking up silt and they are not beating up the reef or their secured equipment. They know where their buddy is and where they are within their respected certified diving environment and they are having a good time and are comfortable.

Perhaps you were not challenged in your class.. people don't mind being challenged when the expectations are reasonable. One of my students made the comment that working to improve their buoyancy and trim was like playing a video game, you just wanted to beat and master the game.
You are trying to suggest that the LDS would keep failing them to gain $ spendoles $. I say that a person would give up if they believed this and that that LDS would die a slow retail death by word of mouth.

 

[Genesis]

No just self answered. If a "yes" is noted then the Dr.'s signature

Ok - that works for me, as its what we have now.....

 

[dweeb]

I don't recall being taught any of these attributes in any of my PADI classes.

You aren't very perceptive then. PADI's whole system is based on giving the consumer immediate gratification for little or no time and effort. Numerous published comments from PADI HQ openly admit this (see any of the "Essential Change" and "Dive Today" material they sent out to members.)

The entire system effectively provides positive reinforcement for attitudes and behavior that are destructive to society.

 

[NAM001]

I don't see that this class would be any more costly then any other class. First my post was targeting the DM who would like to be a WADE instructor, Secondly the OW student should be expected to achieve an acceptable level of profficiency before receiving their c-card. This does not suggest perfection but rather just a higher level of proficiency is expected. Example they can hover and are trimmed, they are not kicking up silt and they are not beating up the reef or their secured equipment. They know where their buddy is and where they are within their respected certified diving environment and they are having a good time and are comfortable.

Perhaps you were not challenged in your class.. people don't mind being challenged when the expectations are reasonable. One of my students made the comment that working to improve their buoyancy and trim was like playing a video game, you just wanted to beat and master the game.
You are trying to suggest that the LDS would keep failing them to gain $ spendoles $. I say that a person would give up if they believed this and that that LDS would die a slow retail death by word of mouth.

to some extent you are right . i challenge myself to get the most. my point was that if ,as in one of the charges about lds's, is that they are just in it for the money and sell the cards. then your solution i think may promote rather than stop that behavior on those that the lds thinks could afford the extra sesions to get more bucks. also that as long as there is no check and ballance to the instructor he is free to do this. it may be a pandoras box, in the end it may not yeild any better of a product in the quantity that the public will notice. especially if it is in a low trianing volumn area. if there is not an adaquaye quantity of grads and noticable expertice in the public eye no one will notice the benifits of the training content, 1/10 of a percent does not make social change. those that try to maximize thier training would not take this course. the two dive vacation diver would not tke this course. as most places would not require the wade cert to dive, the leverage is not there to push folks into the higher quality courses as in the case with no card no air.

not to sound mean what is the thing about kicking up silt///// it seams to be a comstant theme,

KWS

 

[MikeFerrara]

not to sound mean what is the thing about kicking up silt///// it seams to be a comstant theme,

KWS

Well, around here we have silt. 9 out of 10 divers (or more) leave a huge trail behind them reducing the entire dive site to an unsightly zero vis plume within minutes.

I have seen such plumes engulf entire wrecks and vis in a quarry drop from 80 ft to near zero.

Divers stand, sit and kneel on the bottom. When they swim their feet are either in the bottom or they're head up with their fins pointing at the bottom using a big flutter kick. This enables them to trash the vis from 10 feet above the bottom.

In the las couple of years it's gotten so bad that I don't even dive any of the local recreational sites in the summer unless I have to teach. Of course when I'm teaching it lets my students see plenty of examples of what not to do.

This isn't diving it's going for a walk hiking water.

 

[Genesis]

We need to start calling this "breathing underwater" instead of "diving."

If we did that enough some folks might get the hint

PADI might sue us though

 

[NAM001]

Well, around here we have silt. 9 out of 10 divers (or more) leave a huge trail behind them reducing the entire dive site to an unsightly zero vis plume within minutes.

I have seen such plumes engulf entire wrecks and vis in a quarry drop from 80 ft to near zero.

Divers stand, sit and kneel on the bottom. When they swim their feet are either in the bottom or they're head up with their fins pointing at the bottom using a big flutter kick. This enables them to trash the vis from 10 feet above the bottom.

In the las couple of years it's gotten so bad that I don't even dive any of the local recreational sites in the summer unless I have to teach. Of course when I'm teaching it lets my students see plenty of examples of what not to do.

This isn't diving it's going for a walk hiking water.

Thanks i have been wondering about the emphasis over several posts. i have been in places that have a silty bottom also i have been sever l pplaces that have a heavy silt or sand bottom that you have to work to stir up. the silt issue sounds like a local issue that may be nneeded to be trained extra to preserve the enjoyment for all. for the sand bottom iareas it would not be needed to push this area let alone as a overall course criteria beyoun introduction.