Let The revolution Begin!

[GDI]

Thanks i have been wondering about the emphasis over several posts. i have been in places that have a silty bottom also i have been sever l pplaces that have a heavy silt or sand bottom that you have to work to stir up. the silt issue sounds like a local issue that may be nneeded to be trained extra to preserve the enjoyment for all. for the sand bottom iareas it would not be needed to push this area let alone as a overall course criteria beyoun introduction.

Hey KWS,
silting as a result of fin or buoyancy action is not going to be any different in a mucky or sandy area. If the diver has learned bad habits in one area then the diver will do the same in another. There needs to be consistency. Just because sand settles faster then clay or mud should not suggest a lax in standards in one area vs another.

[/QUOTE]to some extent you are right . i challenge myself to get the most. my point was that if ,as in one of the charges about lds's, is that they are just in it for the money and sell the cards. then your solution i think may promote rather than stop that behavior on those that the lds thinks could afford the extra sesions to get more bucks. also that as long as there is no check and ballance to the instructor he is free to do this. it may be a pandoras box, in the end it may not yeild any better of a product in the quantity that the public will notice. especially if it is in a low trianing volumn area. if there is not an adaquaye quantity of grads and noticable expertice in the public eye no one will notice the benifits of the training content, 1/10 of a percent does not make social change. those that try to maximize thier training would not take this course. the two dive vacation diver would not tke this course. as most places would not require the wade cert to dive, the leverage is not there to push folks into the higher quality courses as in the case with no card no air.

not to sound mean what is the thing about kicking up silt///// it seams to be a comstant theme,[/QUOTE]



Let me try to answer this. First, I am glad you challenge yourself. I posted another thread that suggested instructors be paid a scale fee per diver, industry wide. I'm not suggesting a instructor union, just a way of stopping $99 vs $300 scuba classes. This may give a better indicator to potential students of the quality of one class to another. Truthfully I don't see dive shops going this road either. Instructors are pressured by LDS to crank them out, regardless of agency affiliate. If you are a LDS then you are in it for the bussiness and that means money. What we are forgeting here is that the instructors and the LDS need a better working relationship. The LDS does need the instructor in order to get sales, equipment means $$$. Dive shops can let the instructor set the cost for the course and pay them accordingly (ie most of the course price) The instructor employs the standards as set per the guidelines of their agency. The agency sets the conditions to which those standards are administered. If those standards are high and consistant then safer divers will be produced. Nothing says that one student couldn't progress at a faster rate than another, as long as all standards are met and are acceptable a c-card may be issued. (no difference here to whats already going down) At some point all training is subjective to the instructor's opinion, I understand this. However if a course is based on so many "average" hours of instruction then the student can decide the intensity of the course and the instructor determines successful achievement of the acceptable profficiency level based on agency standards. If not achieved then the instructor would receive the monies from the extra sessions. Now the problem here is, is the instructor looking for extra cash? This may be prevented through agency standards. Students could be provided a copy of standards and guidelines that would safe guard them from this kind of piracy. If WADE has a higher bar then XYZ agency then better divers will result. The numbers will be low at first but I like to believe they will get better in time, at least competitive. How many times on a dive trip have you noticed one diver as being better than the others having similar diving hours. WADE will need to have good marketing. Most people who want to learn to dive do so from being with people who do dive. Peolpe don't pay instructors or the LDS to take lessons on how to dive they pay them to "learn to dive". As for the two dive vacation diver, yes there is that market, they can be worked with, perhaps if by no other means than a deligent policy and resort staff. The resorts make their money just like the LDS. For example GUE has attempted to set the bar higher with their holistic DIR system. From the readings of threads on DIR I would have to say they have at least made people think. I don't agree with all their philosophies. I accept that their intent is correct.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Thanks i have been wondering about the emphasis over several posts. i have been in places that have a silty bottom also i have been sever l pplaces that have a heavy silt or sand bottom that you have to work to stir up. the silt issue sounds like a local issue that may be nneeded to be trained extra to preserve the enjoyment for all. for the sand bottom iareas it would not be needed to push this area let alone as a overall course criteria beyoun introduction.

The silt might be local but the same divers who kick up our silt will kick coral. They also can't hold their depth and some are the same divers that who shoot to the surface and into a DAN report.

The silt might be a local problem (common to many locals, BTW) but the lack of skill is wide spread.

Diving is...95% controling you position and attitude in the water column. I mean really, most of the time during a dive that's all you have to do. Being able to do it without too much effort allows you to see the things you want to see and stay aware of the things you need to be aware of. It also allows you to manage a minor inconvenience without making things worse by silting things out and/or getting seperated from your buddy.

Shoot, most groups you see can't even stay together through the descent. The dive is (or has the potential to be) hosed before it even starts.


This post of yours is pretty incredible and illustrates the problem very well.

 

[Genesis]

But Mike - Polaris Missile Launches are SO much fun to watch!

 

[NAM001]

The silt might be local but the same divers who kick up our silt will kick coral. They also can't hold their depth and some are the same divers that who shoot to the surface and into a DAN report.

The silt might be a local problem (common to many locals, BTW) but the lack of skill is wide spread.

Diving is...95% controling you position and attitude in the water column. I mean really, most of the time during a dive that's all you have to do. Being able to do it without too much effort allows you to see the things you want to see and stay aware of the things you need to be aware of. It also allows you to manage a minor inconvenience without making things worse by silting things out and/or getting seperated from your buddy.

Shoot, most groups you see can't even stay together through the descent. The dive is (or has the potential to be) hosed before it even starts.


This post of yours is pretty incredible and illustrates the problem very well.

perhaps i can word it diffferently

if you are not in an area that has fine silty bottoms that your grads are going to use, you train lighter in these areas. if the areas are cold water you train heavier in the thermal considerations. if spear fishing is not allowed in the state you dont put a lot of effot beyond minimum legal considerations. cover it quick and move on the the items that have the greatest impact for the region. where i got my init training was in iowa, lake okaboji. cold water thick wet suits no submerged wrecks. bouyabncy issues there were different than the tropics where you didnt wear wet suits. so bouyancy was an issue there. not for silt reasons ... but for turning to a rock when your 3/8" suit squeezed at 40 feet. we only had horse colars then. i wills say the end of the couerse had a session of issues that were till then skipped or lightly hit such as spear fishing boyancy issues when diving with out a wet suits salt water, ect. to cover situations not prevelant to the local areas. in troopical areas i would not expect to train heavily on suit squeeze issues as it affects boyancy but have a greater coverage of marine life. all areas need to be covered just not with the same furver in all locals.



KWS

 

[NAM001]

The silt might be local but the same divers who kick up our silt will kick coral. They also can't hold their depth and some are the same divers that who shoot to the surface and into a DAN report.

The silt might be a local problem (common to many locals, BTW) but the lack of skill is wide spread.

Diving is...95% controling you position and attitude in the water column. I mean really, most of the time during a dive that's all you have to do. Being able to do it without too much effort allows you to see the things you want to see and stay aware of the things you need to be aware of. It also allows you to manage a minor inconvenience without making things worse by silting things out and/or getting seperated from your buddy.

Shoot, most groups you see can't even stay together through the descent. The dive is (or has the potential to be) hosed before it even starts.


This post of yours is pretty incredible and illustrates the problem very well.

perhaps i can word it diffferently

if you are not in an area that has fine silty bottoms that your grads are going to use, you train lighter in these areas. if the areas are cold water you train heavier in the thermal considerations. if spear fishing is not allowed in the state you dont put a lot of effot beyond minimum legal considerations. cover it quick and move on the the items that have the greatest impact for the region. where i got my init training was in iowa, lake okaboji. cold water thick wet suits no submerged wrecks. bouyabncy issues there were different than the tropics where you didnt wear wet suits. so bouyancy was an issue there. not for silt reasons ... but for turning to a rock when your 3/8" suit squeezed at 40 feet. we only had horse colars then. i wills say the end of the couerse had a session of issues that were till then skipped or lightly hit such as spear fishing boyancy issues when diving with out a wet suits salt water, ect. to cover situations not prevelant to the local areas. in troopical areas i would not expect to train heavily on suit squeeze issues as it affects boyancy but have a greater coverage of marine life. all areas need to be covered just not with the same furver in all locals.



KWS

 

[MaxBottomtime]

Are you a new diver or a very experienced one. If given the opportunity to develop the skills, teaching techniques, instructor standards and procedures. instructor policies, agency policies, student standards - what would you want to see? What would you expect of your agency? What would you expect for dive instruction liability? What would you expect of other divers? Do you want to build an agency? Do you want to build a academic and skill curiculum? Now is the time to voice your opinion. Obviously the existing agencies are not doing what is expective from the rec to full tec diver levels.

ps Keep it real. Keep it civil.

I like most of the standards GUE uses, but not the way they're headed. Too many non-certifying courses begin to look like PADI specialities. I would integrate the DIR-F class into an Open Water course. An advance course would include rescue/first aid. I wouldn't call a diver advanced if they couldn't perform a rescue. For the tech courses I would eliminate the introductory stuff and teach a single Nitrox class, a single Trimix class, a single cave class and a single Tech class. Students interested in one of these activities should have the oppertunity to learn as much as they can without paying for it twice. Of course, having multiple levels of classes and specialities is the way agencies make money, even if they claim they're not in it for the money.

 

[rab]

Now the problem here is, is the instructor looking for extra cash? This may be prevented through agency standards. Students could be provided a copy of standards and guidelines that would safe guard them from this kind of piracy. If WADE has a higher bar then XYZ agency then better divers will result. The numbers will be low at first but I like to believe they will get better in time, at least competitive. How many times on a dive trip have you noticed one diver as being better than the others having similar diving hours.

I don't see how this will work. Look at it from the non-diver's point of view: XYZ has lower standards -- so that'll be easier! It's not hard to imagine that higher standards (possibly "higher quality"?) might cost more. You're not going to get the non-diver to understand what the standards and quality will mean. Before I took my course, I didn't know that there were so many different certifying agencies. The dive shop that's less than a mile from my home in Ohio happens to teach PADI so that's what I took (actually, what my wife bought an OW class gift certificate for!).

The idea that this new agency would draw non-divers seems a stretch. I agree with dweeb and MikeFerrara that OW certs from PADI aren't aimed at producing a truly competent diver. (Apologies if this misrepresents either of your positions.) During my AOW class last fall, I was the only recent OW diver and the only one to not have any ocean dives. Of the four other divers a the check-out dives, two (!) had trouble descending. I thought I did pretty well in comparison.

I can also reinforce the lack of bouyancy control practiced during my OW check-out dives. Most of the skills were performed (demonstrated) on a platform at about 20ft. While I was waiting my turn, I was adjusting my bouyancy and gently "bouncing" a few inches off my knees. One of the assistant instructors swam up behind me and pushed me back onto the platform. I wasn't rocketing to the surface -- just moving along with my breathing. After reading so much on this board, I can only imagine some of the situations that the instructor and his assistants must recall that began with someone loosing contact with the platform before making an unintended dash for the surface.

I don't know how it could be positioned, but the type of course that you've described seems to be right for the diver who just isn't quite "getting it" on his/her own and recognizes that additional training will help. This just seems like an incredibly small number of potential students (customers/clients).

-Rob

 

[NAM001]

I don't see how this will work. Look at it from the non-diver's point of view: XYZ has lower standards -- so that'll be easier! It's not hard to imagine that higher standards (possibly "higher quality"?) might cost more. You're not going to get the non-diver to understand what the standards and quality will mean. Before I took my course, I didn't know that there were so many different certifying agencies. The dive shop that's less than a mile from my home in Ohio happens to teach PADI so that's what I took (actually, what my wife bought an OW class gift certificate for!).

The idea that this new agency would draw non-divers seems a stretch. I agree with dweeb and MikeFerrara that OW certs from PADI aren't aimed at producing a truly competent diver. (Apologies if this misrepresents either of your positions.) During my AOW class last fall, I was the only recent OW diver and the only one to not have any ocean dives. Of the four other divers a the check-out dives, two (!) had trouble descending. I thought I did pretty well in comparison.

I can also reinforce the lack of bouyancy control practiced during my OW check-out dives. Most of the skills were performed (demonstrated) on a platform at about 20ft. While I was waiting my turn, I was adjusting my bouyancy and gently "bouncing" a few inches off my knees. One of the assistant instructors swam up behind me and pushed me back onto the platform. I wasn't rocketing to the surface -- just moving along with my breathing. After reading so much on this board, I can only imagine some of the situations that the instructor and his assistants must recall that began with someone loosing contact with the platform before making an unintended dash for the surface.

I don't know how it could be positioned, but the type of course that you've described seems to be right for the diver who just isn't quite "getting it" on his/her own and recognizes that additional training will help. This just seems like an incredibly small number of potential students (customers/clients).

-Rob

hello rab

refreshing input.

how much ocean related training did you get your ohio class ohio? itseams that you managed to get the boyancy thing working for you even at only 20 ft. you sound neutrl to me. cant tell about your trim but i assume that has worked out also. its a very good oint about a non diver not knowing what is out there to pick from. i did ymca and at the time the instructor had reasons why ymca was the best going. (hypothetical) if you felt that the agency shorted you in training in some way what would you feel about a pipeline as suggested by others? what certs have you comleted so far? what was usless for ohio diving and what do you wish they hit harder on.

thanks

KWS

 

[GDI]

Buoyancy and Trim are IMHO the trade marks of a good diver. Adjusting your attitude regarding this to the areas in which may be fine for local diving environments as far as the marine life and climatic conditions are concerned is OK. However. Some skills such as buoyancy and trimming are common to any environment. You need to adapt the training for the environmental aspects but you still need good buoyancy and trim and awarness control. Badly practised skills will be bad anywhere you dive and are the same as having no skills. I have made 1000's of dives in the Great Lakes, Quarries, Rivers, Streams. Lakes and both oceans and the Gulf. I would rather not need to adjust my diving basic skills to match the area. I will make adjustments for 2 piece 6mm wetsuits, drysuits or a 3 mm wetsuit. I had to work on these skills just like everyone else when I started. Heck we didn't have BC's or even horse collars back then, you had to calculate the weight you needed and adjusted your buoyancy by your breathing and swimming action. Some guys used tied off bleach bottles for BC's. The point is I learned on a archaic system. Today the divers are not being instructed to maximize their equipment capabilities thoroughly enough.

 

[rab]

How much ocean related training did you get in your ohio class? It seems that you managed to get the bouyancy thing working for you even at only 20 ft. You sound neutral to me.

I hope all of it was "ocean-related" (well, not the fin-pivot). Neutral? Well, I practiced more later, but "staticly" neutral (i.e., not swimming) wasn't too hard anyway.

Can't tell about your trim but I assume that has worked out also.

I spent over an hour in the LDS pool last weekend trying out my new Zeagle Ranger BC (Christmas present!). I was specifically thinking about bouyancy and trim and weighting. I had 14lbs with my own 5/3 full wetsuit at my OW cert (with a wrap-around jacket BC) -- ended up with 10lbs in the pool and was still able to be neutral with little or no air in the BC with 1000psi so I'm probably at least a pound or two "heavy" with the 10lbs. The trim was OK, but I did notice that I tended to be a bit head-down from horizontal (the weight was in the integrated weight pockets so a few inches higher than it would be on a belt). I'll be working on it!

It's a very good point about a non-diver not knowing what is out there to pick from. I did YMCA and at the time the instructor had reasons why YMCA was the best going. (hypothetical) If you felt that the agency shorted you in training in some way, what would you feel about a pipeline as suggested by others? What certs have you completed so far? What was usless for Ohio diving and what do you wish they hit harder on?

I know how to follow an example and was observing the Instructor, assistant and DM(s) in the pool and the quarry. This was the only exposure to any type of non-flutter kick -- they weren't "taught" at all. When I did my AOW (with no dives between OW and AOW) I was able to do a couple of fun dives with one of the DM-in-training divers. They were great. I even was the "lead buddy" at the end of the weekend for an OW couple who had been in my OW class, but couldn't do the cert dives until the weekend that I had my AOW certs. They weren't entirely comfortable going in without someone else -- that I was only about 6-7 dives more "experienced" was enough!

As for the "pipeline," I think that makes a great deal of sense. Get your OW, then have several "steps" (not necessarily certs) that can be taken before/with/after AOW or specialties. Perhaps OW should require an "elective" between a "probationary" cert and the "full" OW cert. The instructor (and PADI materials, I believe) reminded the class that the OW cert was more like a "learner's permit" than a "license to dive."

-Rob