How much that the LDS tells me can I believe?
- Thread starter violakat03
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The problem is that the colleges like to have the program, but aren't particularly fond of paying the instructor. Our local college pays the instructor a whopping $1000 per semester for a (too big IMO) class of 20 students. Few people would take that deal without the promise of making the money up in other ways. This obviously fosters the unethical behavior we see in cases like the one in this thread. Aside from gear sales, the college instructor also gets the open water fees from all students desiring to complete their certification. In order to get on a more ethical standing, the college needs to:
1. Pay the instructor a wage sufficient to make the postion desirable in itself.
2. Have the Open Water portion paid to the school, not directly to the instructor.
3. Provide students information on referral options and provide referrals at little or no
cost (similar to the cost of a printed transcript one would need to bring credits to
another school).
4. Prohibit the promotion of sales and make it clear that the LDS is NOT a topic of
discussion in the class and that LDS promotional/logo bearing material is not
permitted.
Alternatively, they could simply lease class/pool space to the LDS at a rate they are willing to give to anyone in the community for comparable facilities. This would take the college out of the equation altogether in my book so long as the college no longer listed or promoted the class.
JMO
junior2725
Contributor
I like supporting my lds because they are really nice guys. Yeah, I spent a lot of money on all scubapro gear, but they did give me a 10% discount. I always get a 10% discount on anything I buy. I even had my lds order my drysuit for me. I could have gotten it a little cheaper online, but as I said I like to support them. They take me out diving sometimes just for fun, bring tanks for me. When I do go out on my own, and need air fills, they won't let me pay for the fills. They also have done my drysuit speciality, underwater photo specialty, night specialty, and EFR training for nothing. I paid a discounted rate for my rescue class. I'm sure they made some decent money on all my purchases even with the 10% discount, but they have given me excellent customer service, and spent a lot of time doing classes with me for nothing. I have offered a couple of times to at least pay for the pool time, because I know it cost them money to use the pool, but they wouldn't let me. When I bought my new bcd with the air II, one of the owners set up some pool time to practice ooa drills with the air II, and work on my buoyancy with the new back inflate. I feel really lucky to have such great guys at my lds, especially after reading some of your comments.
OP
violakat03
Contributor
I just want to say thanks again for all the excellent replies (and PMs!) that you have been giving me. I'm sorry that I sort of disappeared this afternoon, the snowstorm knocked out cable for the entire city and I only just now got my internet back!
I feel a lot more comfortable now with the decision to not purchase our own gear and not let him push us into doing so until we have a better idea of where we will be diving and our gear preferences. Considering this is our first time ever doing this, it's hard to say whether we'll decide to actually go diving up here in the frigid north or if we'll stick to warmer southern waters, whether we'll be deep divers or just want to stay at shallower depth and check out gorgeous fish in the tropics. Until then, rentals are fine with me, so long as they come from reputable shops.
As far as staying signed up for the advanced class, I think I'm going to do that because now I know not to let them push me, and I get federal grant money to take college classes - so why pay for it myself when the government will?
The LDS owner is not the instructor of the advanced class, but it still someone connected to his store - however, that person is also an assistant instructor for the OW class and is not pushy at all about getting your own equipment. He thinks it's a good idea but doesn't consider it a "must have" straight off the bat. He taught our class this week because the normal instructor was out of town, and I really enjoyed it, a lot different than the normal sales spiel mixed in with actual education. This was the class about the dive tables and he emphasized that you don't have to buy a computer if you know your tables, and in certain circumstances (they like to use the "dropped knife" scenario - your dive is at 60' but you drop your knife and have to go down to 80' to retrieve it, thus changing all your calculations for the entire dive) that they are a great tool to have but most beginning divers don't need them. That was a nice change.
I can definitely see the benefits of shopping for equipment in person - when looking at BCDs, he had me try on some men's models first because of my size, and we quickly discovered they would not work because the upper buckle laid across the 'peak' of my chest and was very uncomfortable. The ladies models, even though I'm not exactly a normal sized lady, fit me just fine and did not have the buckle problem. This is something I would not have known if I had not gone to a brick and mortar store. I ended up going with a back-inflation rather than a full vest inflation because that felt more comfortable to me, another thing I wouldn't have known if I hadn't tried them all on. My mask also fits perfectly, another thing that can only be accomplished in person. I'm very happy with the equipment I've purchased so far, I just wish I'd had more options to choose from as this store only sells two lines (ScubaPro and AL) as someone else was talking about, just the "high line" stuff essentially. Maybe if I'd had other options to choose from I'd have found something else I liked equally well and maybe cost a little less. I will not be blindly shopping in the future, that is for sure!
I did a search for shops in my area, unfortunately there is only one other and it's about 20 miles further away than this store (which is already 20 miles away!). I think we might make one trip there to see what their prices and selection are like for wetsuits but I'm thinking that I will probably buy online from one of the many sites that has been recommended.
Thanks again to everyone, you have all been so helpful!
Edited to add: for the person talking about wetsuit prices, they were all Aqua Lung, whatever their super-stretch model is. It was I think $285 for the 3mm and $596 for the 5 mm, both men's XL short - which unfortunately does not fit me quite right. He carried Aqua Lung, Henderson and one other that's a ladies-only version I believe of Henderson (but they don't make big enough for me). And what's funny is you say I could get a dry suit for a few hundred more, my husband inquired about them and was told that an 'average' dry suit price is $1400! Sounds pretty fishy to me. When I told him I found the exact same 5mm suit online for $300 he was quick to discredit it, that it must be a "grey market" suit, not to trust buying from them, that they weren't authorized dealers, etc. And yet, every place I've looked online so far, $300 to $350 seems like the more accurate price for that suit.
I feel a lot more comfortable now with the decision to not purchase our own gear and not let him push us into doing so until we have a better idea of where we will be diving and our gear preferences. Considering this is our first time ever doing this, it's hard to say whether we'll decide to actually go diving up here in the frigid north or if we'll stick to warmer southern waters, whether we'll be deep divers or just want to stay at shallower depth and check out gorgeous fish in the tropics. Until then, rentals are fine with me, so long as they come from reputable shops.
As far as staying signed up for the advanced class, I think I'm going to do that because now I know not to let them push me, and I get federal grant money to take college classes - so why pay for it myself when the government will?
The LDS owner is not the instructor of the advanced class, but it still someone connected to his store - however, that person is also an assistant instructor for the OW class and is not pushy at all about getting your own equipment. He thinks it's a good idea but doesn't consider it a "must have" straight off the bat. He taught our class this week because the normal instructor was out of town, and I really enjoyed it, a lot different than the normal sales spiel mixed in with actual education. This was the class about the dive tables and he emphasized that you don't have to buy a computer if you know your tables, and in certain circumstances (they like to use the "dropped knife" scenario - your dive is at 60' but you drop your knife and have to go down to 80' to retrieve it, thus changing all your calculations for the entire dive) that they are a great tool to have but most beginning divers don't need them. That was a nice change.I can definitely see the benefits of shopping for equipment in person - when looking at BCDs, he had me try on some men's models first because of my size, and we quickly discovered they would not work because the upper buckle laid across the 'peak' of my chest and was very uncomfortable. The ladies models, even though I'm not exactly a normal sized lady, fit me just fine and did not have the buckle problem. This is something I would not have known if I had not gone to a brick and mortar store. I ended up going with a back-inflation rather than a full vest inflation because that felt more comfortable to me, another thing I wouldn't have known if I hadn't tried them all on. My mask also fits perfectly, another thing that can only be accomplished in person. I'm very happy with the equipment I've purchased so far, I just wish I'd had more options to choose from as this store only sells two lines (ScubaPro and AL) as someone else was talking about, just the "high line" stuff essentially. Maybe if I'd had other options to choose from I'd have found something else I liked equally well and maybe cost a little less. I will not be blindly shopping in the future, that is for sure!
I did a search for shops in my area, unfortunately there is only one other and it's about 20 miles further away than this store (which is already 20 miles away!). I think we might make one trip there to see what their prices and selection are like for wetsuits but I'm thinking that I will probably buy online from one of the many sites that has been recommended.
Thanks again to everyone, you have all been so helpful!
Edited to add: for the person talking about wetsuit prices, they were all Aqua Lung, whatever their super-stretch model is. It was I think $285 for the 3mm and $596 for the 5 mm, both men's XL short - which unfortunately does not fit me quite right. He carried Aqua Lung, Henderson and one other that's a ladies-only version I believe of Henderson (but they don't make big enough for me). And what's funny is you say I could get a dry suit for a few hundred more, my husband inquired about them and was told that an 'average' dry suit price is $1400! Sounds pretty fishy to me. When I told him I found the exact same 5mm suit online for $300 he was quick to discredit it, that it must be a "grey market" suit, not to trust buying from them, that they weren't authorized dealers, etc. And yet, every place I've looked online so far, $300 to $350 seems like the more accurate price for that suit.
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The courses I taught at the university were unpaid, I was not paid, my staff was not paid (granted I was the full time DSO, but that was for 35 hours during normal hours). I taught 4 credits of Scientific Diving, 6 credits of diving leadership, and 4 credits of Instructor training. that's 14 credits per year which was a higher load than most faculty, who typically taught one service class and one advanced class each semester for a total of 12 credits per year.
The university did not pay for my staff which was typically 11 people, 5 Team Leaders (Instructors) and 6 Assistant Team Leaders (AIs). Students paid the university for their credits but I never saw a dime of that. Team Leaders had their equipment replaced as if wore out with funds that I was able to put aside from summer Instructor Training Courses that were open to the public and run as workshops, so I could "bank" the fees. Assistant Team Leaders received a free Instructor course just before or after they graduated.
The local LDS were great, following the U.C. Berkeley model I sent out a detailed equipment list to all students and they were required to show up the first day of class with a full set of gear. All the shops had to do was take the money, order the gear and give it to the students, no selling, no fuss, no muss, but at $2,500 per student times twenty students, each class represented $50,000 in gross sales. Even at ten-up that does wonders for your booking order and can move you out to end column prices for the whole year ... and that my friend can add a chunk of change to an LDS's bottom line.
If an LDS wants to use the school pool they need to do two things, first they need to pay the same fee per hour as any other user and they need to convince me that their practices and procedures do not represent a threat for the Risk Management Office.
The university did not pay for my staff which was typically 11 people, 5 Team Leaders (Instructors) and 6 Assistant Team Leaders (AIs). Students paid the university for their credits but I never saw a dime of that. Team Leaders had their equipment replaced as if wore out with funds that I was able to put aside from summer Instructor Training Courses that were open to the public and run as workshops, so I could "bank" the fees. Assistant Team Leaders received a free Instructor course just before or after they graduated.
The local LDS were great, following the U.C. Berkeley model I sent out a detailed equipment list to all students and they were required to show up the first day of class with a full set of gear. All the shops had to do was take the money, order the gear and give it to the students, no selling, no fuss, no muss, but at $2,500 per student times twenty students, each class represented $50,000 in gross sales. Even at ten-up that does wonders for your booking order and can move you out to end column prices for the whole year ... and that my friend can add a chunk of change to an LDS's bottom line.
If an LDS wants to use the school pool they need to do two things, first they need to pay the same fee per hour as any other user and they need to convince me that their practices and procedures do not represent a threat for the Risk Management Office.
There appears to be a misapprehension that community college instructors make money. They generally don't without tenure and a buttload of accrued seniority.
In the case of the scuba instructors, they're being contracted as "adjunct instructors", and the pay rate is directly contingent upon contact hours.
Ergo, $1000 for contact hours equivalent to a college-level OW class isn't unusual. The contact hours are probably equivalent to one or two semester lab credits. That's paltry.
So I have zero sympathy.
VooDooGasMan
Contributor
I read your post this morning and the Idea that your gear was not going to fit really seemed to steam you. So you know that the best fitting gear will keep you diving, cause you will be comfy.
If your in a area you can dive every day, I say yea you need your gear right away.
If you can not dive your area, travel rent, Its cheap actually. The money you have spent is like 5 weeks rental, for you and your husband. Plus packing it through the airport, etc.
And nimrods advice is where i will go next.
(I think if he is a dive shop, and selling you Equipment like bc, reg set, air tank, he could get in trouble by Knowing that you don't have your temp card even. to go at the collage,might not go far, But if he kept irriataiting you call the cert agencie and fill them in that he selling to a Uncertified diver.)
Buying online is different, they don't intentionaly know that you are not certified.
If your in a area you can dive every day, I say yea you need your gear right away.
If you can not dive your area, travel rent, Its cheap actually. The money you have spent is like 5 weeks rental, for you and your husband. Plus packing it through the airport, etc.
And nimrods advice is where i will go next.
(I think if he is a dive shop, and selling you Equipment like bc, reg set, air tank, he could get in trouble by Knowing that you don't have your temp card even. to go at the collage,might not go far, But if he kept irriataiting you call the cert agencie and fill them in that he selling to a Uncertified diver.)
Buying online is different, they don't intentionaly know that you are not certified.
OP
violakat03
Contributor
Not fitting was one concern, another was that it wasn't necessarily the "right" equipment for my needs. He sort of dismissed all my concerns and pointed me to his favored products, very insistent that they were the only way to go.
I didn't realize you weren't supposed to sell things to an uncertified diver.
Of course! If I didn't like everyone who didn't agree with me then I would be missing out on some great friends! Spirited debates can be quite informative, challenging and fun, just as long as everyone remains polite and civil. Most folks on the board seem to play nice with each other but every now and again (and maybe it's just the way I take it) people can be a little testy.
it's the one manufacturer that tells you what you can sell for, either you do or you don't carry the line. period. Most of them recommend you selling for that so everyone is not cutting the others throat to stay in business. That's why if you google shopping Aeris Epic computer you get $649.95 for the non air integrated and $959.95 for the air integrated.
save diving everyone! (AND Happy FRIDAY!)
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