What women want?

[Cacia]

Find at least ONE thread about DCS related issues - whether DCS is gender neutral or not.

Well, I don't get too caught up in that because let's face it, until mainstream medicine does some studies on widely used drugs on somebody besides a 75 kg male....don't hold your breath on anything useful about women's physiology that will change the way we dive.

I think for practical purposes it will be be pretty gender neutral for a long time.
My hair, on the other hand, does matter this afternoon when I go to lunch right after a dive, from the boat.

So, I am curious...with this advanced education for young students....why do they say the "knowledge econonmy" is so poor and Research and Development is a big hurdle for the Polish economy? Just really curious about these things....Finland has some of the highest math scores these days (don't they?) and then you look at places that have huge problems like SoCal and well, they are bursting at the seams with innovation...I wonder about that. Sorry...sort of off topic, but not really if you think about women's historical position in Poland and why you might feel more radical about women's rights. Because honestly, you remind me a bit of women here were in the 60's. I am always eager to hear your opinions and don't mean to sound stupid. I do wonder if, in America, we have come sort of circular and now enjoy the luxury of being able to fully express the feminine side. We really have very few threats to anything we may wish to do in Estados Unidos, I feel.

We whine at times, but we have the world by the tail. When American women complain about chauvinism, it's more like an old familiar echo than anything else. Most girls here realize they can do anything men can do...it might even be easier being on the cusp of societal change the way we have already cleared the hump. Look at our numbers for college grads..I think, we have more women in college than men, unless I am wrong.

Our biggest challenge in this country? ... Is to not get so zealous we create a backlash from men, because, right now, they often get the short end of the stick...we want it both ways.

 

[mania]

Well...
we could go on discussing for a long time, so I will stop - at the moment. erparamedic - sorry, I was reading few posts and forgot it was you asking about motherhood.
As for breast feeding and diving - you can do this. It's a simple answer. To make the long story short - inert gas at the preassure of 1 atm is not dangerous.

colouring hair - this have to be repeated once a while, right? So simply do it more often. And that's it. Nothing is permanent, even the perma

Maybe I'm not so open minded as you would like me to be. Why? Becasue I want women to think!!!! I want them to use their brain. To get them interested in more than hair, nails and make up in diving. They can do it. And I think we should incourage them to do so instead of saying - it'a absolutly OK if you are only interested in colour of your fins instead of being interested in more serious stuff. You have the right to do so. Yes they have the right, but they can DO BETTER than that.

Don't you see that you are following the path that has been drawn ages ago? That this is OK if women are interested in girlie stuff more than in anything else?
Somewhere beneath this way of thinking lies (and none will admit this as this is subconscious) the feeling "becasue we are not capable of other things, we are only girls and this is what we have been told for ages, so it must be true".
It's not.

Mania

 

[letterboy]

Hellooooo . . . .

 

[TheRedHead]

Here I go again...

The point of makeup is to look attractive and keeping attractive while you dive can be quite a challenge. I don't see the harm in a little water-proof mascara or lip gloss whilst diving.

 

[Damselfish]

I'm kinda with Mania here, I generally have an aversion to women specific events. Sometimes they may make sense when there is enough of a critical mass of reasons to have them AND they won't set a bad precedent, but I don't see it in diving. Sure there are specific things and something like having this forum for questions is useful. Or maybe a single presentation at a larger event. An article in a magazine. But it seems to me that anything "women specific" in diving either:

- has simple answers that doesn't warrant a dedicated event. (there's guys stuff like that too, but I'm just not seeing a conference on pee valves.)
- or is stuff that many guys would be interested in hearing too so doesn't warrant a dedicated event. (Something like Sylvia Earle talking about whatever, or physiology issues.)
- or isn't really woman specific when you think about it for a moment. Fitness issues, or BC and wetsuit fit issues, are hardly restricted to one sex. Maybe more women have some of these issues or theres a unique spin sometimes, but again not worthy of discussion at an event framed as "womens" issues, seems to me like it's sending the wrong message to present things this way. Travel issues aren't just womens, or the ones that might be aren't particularly specific to diving.
- and the rest is of a fluffier nature (hair, nails, etc.) and I'd hate to see a womens dive conference covering.

 

[TheRedHead]

When you get into technical diving the gender issues become pronounced. Men are simply stronger than women and have a clear advantage. It's also a very MACHO environment and I would like to see that changed.

 

[erparamedic]

No worries, Mania... was just making some generalized observations.

Now, while I mentioned several things such as nails, hair, etc., I, personally, could care less about the nails thing... but for other women, it might be pertanent. I don't generally hilight my hair (have in the past though), but being on a budget... when I do hilight, I like it to last. I don't need to worry about pregnancy and breast feeding anymore... but other women still do. See where I'm coming from? (I'm advocating the fact that women do have these questions and they are valid questions.)

That said... keep in mind that just because a woman is interested in asking lots of "girlie" things about diving, doesn't mean that they are not capable of performing at "high standards". It doesn't mean that they don't "think", and doesn't mean that they don't care about the "serious" things. Maybe they get all the other answers that they want from the other forums (by participating in them, or just lurking in them)and literature, videos, etc, but when it comes to hair, nails, and makeup, the women's forum is the place to post. Makes sense.

As an example:

Personally, I am a very smart woman. I have high standards for everything that I do, especially with my job. My occupation is dominated by males (I worked for a fire department for 10 years, and in the ER for close to 3 years now). And yet, I am a female and perform my duties AT LEAST as well as the men. I can hold my own when it comes to my responsibilities, including lifting/carrying/moving patients (something that most men think women can't adequately do). On several occasions, I have (tactfully) corrected many doctors and nurses (male or female), and outperformed them when the "intervention" was essential and critical. I have also been corrected by them... I'm not saying that I'm perfect. There are things that I can do (and do do) in the ER, that the nurses and docs can't/won't do (EJs, IOs, intubations (docs do them, but our nurses can't), traction splinting, etc etc). "Critical thinking" is a natural part of my job... rattling of complicated drug dosage calculations in the blink of an eye, making a diagnosis and starting treatments/protocols, etc. I could go on all day.

Look at Trucker Girl, for example, her profession is DEFINITELY dominated by men... as a truck driver in the car haul industry. She also holds her own.

I truly appreciate the fact that you want women to step up and be the best that they can be, and think for themselves, and be concerned with the "serious stuff". Just remember, there are alot of VERY ACCOMPLISHED lady divers that like nice hair and pretty nails, and carry that over to their gear choices (etc.), and just because they ask about the like, doesn't make them any less accomplished.

 

[letterboy]

Nvm..

 

[Cacia]

Somewhere beneath this way of thinking lies (and none will admit this as this is subconscious) the feeling "becasue we are not capable of other things, we are only girls and this is what we have been told for ages, so it must be true".

well, landing a desirable mate will always matter.

Your partners social position, male or female will likely determine at least half of your standard of living. If one doesn't value that---that is fine, but the fact is MOST women do, because it translates into health care for their kids and little things like that. Throw in love and passion and you are set. (and my Suunto can just wait sometimes)

So...I'll keep worrying about the silly stuff because the pay-off is there. If men care, then I have to care.

Professional surfers all wear make-up with Titanium from Neiman Marcus of all places...even the men. Protecting yourself from the elements is modern. So is retin-A and peels that rid us sun worshippers of pre-cancerous lesions. It's not about the old battles anymore, many women have moved on. If somebody says something snide about me applying make-up or products while out diving, I think they are living in the dark ages and brace myself for the bra burning. They just don't know what they are talking about.

A lot of the cutting edge stuff doesn't get discussed here because..well, you would just get called blonde, stupid, unthinking. I argue that it doesn't matter how others see you as long as you are on top---meaning happy and healthy. Just sayin...this is the "other side" for some of us women who get routinely written off as "not as smart"--maybe we are smarter than society thinks.

I am just trying to say that there could be a diminished return on spending too much time studying mathematical theoretical models, unless that is what turns you on.

and none will admit this as this is subconscious

or it could be a conscious set of priorities...

 

[scratchmyback]

Maybe I'm not so open minded as you would like me to be. Why? Becasue I want women to think!!!! I want them to use their brain. To get them interested in more than hair, nails and make up in diving. They can do it. And I think we should incourage them to do so instead of saying - it'a absolutly OK if you are only interested in colour of your fins instead of being interested in more serious stuff. You have the right to do so. Yes they have the right, but they can DO BETTER than that.Mania

I guess I don't understand why you see this as an 'either/or' option. According to you, if a woman is interested in her hair, nails and makeup in diving she can't possibly have a brain and be interested in other diving-related issues such as the DCS you keep quoting. You keep repeating yourself over and over. They can DO BETTER than what? Whose standards? Yours? Feel free to have the highest standards you want for yourself, if that's what makes you happy.

And for what it's worth, I happen to be a nail tech and I am keenly interested, from a professional perspective in any nail-related issues within the diving environment.