Thank heavens for PADI

[GreenDiverDown]

FLL Diver once bubbled...


Walter, is there anything wrong with that?

As a Y instructor, can you add additional requirements that aren't in the course requirements and not certify someone because they don't perform the additional requirements to your satisfaction?

Marc

As a Y instructor Walter has the freedom to require of his students any additional skill he dreams up. For instance, he has been known to hold back certification from students that failed to execute his required "combat" Immelman. Unfortunately, many students often mistakenly perform the much easier "air show" Immelman. Just wait till that Great White is on your tail and see if that one will work...not!

Well...inventing your own class has some disadvantages, too. I remember a few years back when an instructor - not as knowledgable as Walter - had required his students to perform a tail slide as the shark evading maneuver of choice. You guessed it...he ended up in court after a cert of his was taken in one quick bite. The instructor, of course, lost his shirt after the expert witness testifed that the proper maneuver would have been the C.I.



SA

 

[Walter]

Stephen, old buddy,

You are usually funnier than this.

You are correct, I can add in almost anything I'd like. I can't imagine adding anything that doesn't contribute to a student's ability as a diver.

Since a shark is much more powerful, has more speed and is more maneuverable than a diver, the Immelman would put the diver at even more of a disadvantage, especially at the top of the loop when he is at his slowest.

I would never teach the Immelman as a viable method of shark avoidance. It is useful when in hand to hand combat with other divers. For sharks, I advocate the break turn. Remember, never go above the shark when using the break turn.

 

[ElectricZombie]

What is the "Immelman"?

 

[Walter]

Sorry Marc,

I missed your question. If you were working with a perfect set of standards, there would be nothing wrong with that. Since no standards are perfect, such a rule prevents you from striving toward perfection.

For example, YMCA does not require OW students to hover without significant movement. I believe this is an excellent skill to require. I can add that skill and require it. NAUI does not require no mask breathing, MB requires it in his NAUI classes. PADI does not require simulated in water rescue breathing. While a PADI instructor can teach it, he can not require his students to master the skill.

Yes, there is something wrong with that, IMNSHO. Yes, I can add skills and refuse to issue a certification until the student has mastered those skills to my satisfaction. I do that in almost every class I teach.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

ElectricZombie once bubbled...
What is the "Immelman"?

The Immelman is a dogfight maneuver named after the WWI German Ace Max Immelman. It has absolutely nothing to do with diving. It certainly isn't a maneuver used in scuba diving to avoid a shark attack.

Walter has once again missed the point.

But that's O.K.

Return to your PADI bashing, Walter.

SA

 

[Walter]

ElectricZombie,

The Immelman is a maneuver invented in WW I by German Ace Max Immelmann. It is a method to avoid an enemy fighter plane on your tail.

While flying level, pull back on the stick putting the plane into a steep climb. Keep the stick back until you've completed a half loop. At the top of the loop, you'll be upside down. To complete the maneuver, you roll back to a rightside position. You are now at a higher altitude and traveling the opposite direction.

If you do this trying to avoid a plane that can climb faster than you, you are likely to get shot down.

Stephen was trying to be funny.

 

[BigJetDriver]

ElectricZombie once bubbled...
What is the "Immelman"?

It is a maneuver invented in WW I and involves a standard inside loop which changes to a half-roll at the top of the loop. You thus gain altitude, and change direction 180 degrees.

It's easier to do with standard pilot "hand flying" and Jedi wave-of-the-hand mind trick stuff!:winkbl:

 

[Walter]

Stephen,

I'm wounded, I got the point.

I can't believe you'd go to such trouble as to bring in the Immelmann and think I'd not appreciate it. I even took it and ran with it to show I appreciated your effort. It wasn't particularly funny, but it was clever. I like clever.

I don't like PADI, but I don't bash them. All my criticisms of PADI are based on facts. That is not bashing.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Walter once bubbled...
Stephen,

I'm wounded, I got the point.

I can't believe you'd go to such trouble as to bring in the Immelmann and think I'd not appreciate it. I even took it and ran with it to show I appreciated your effort. It wasn't particularly funny, but it was clever. I like clever.

I don't like PADI, but I don't bash them. All my criticisms of PADI are based on facts. That is not bashing.

It's obvious that you have an axe to grind. Hey...if PADI had worked me over like they recently did you, then I'd be out to get 'em, too.

Just because you say you don't PADI bash doesn't make this true. I suspect if we took a vote you'd be named king of the PADI bashers. Sorry if you don't like that but that's the way it is. If you don't like the idea of being the head PADI basher then you ought to change your delivery.

SA

Oh...I don't mind that you don't think that I'm funny...I don't think of myself as very funny either. Too bad, though... I always wanted to be funny... but I got the serious genes.

Actually I wasn't trying to be funny ( I gave that up a long time ago). But I was trying to make a point...can you guess what it was without continuing to dis me?

SA

 

[Walter]

Stephen,

If you felt calling you clever was disrespectful, I'm sorry, that was not my intention.

I understood your point from the outset. I just thought you were trying to make that point with humor. You tried to make the concept of allowing instructors add and require mastery of skills seem like a bad idea by taking it to a ridiculous extreme.

It was clever, but when I expanded on the dogfight analogy, it pointed out that I agree such extremes are a bad idea and that no one would actually use such methods.

If someone doesn't have the brains to recognize when they are going too far, they don't have the brains to teach diving. I'd rather eliminate those folks from my instructor base than to write standards to keep them in check.

No axe to grind. PADI didn't work me over. They certainly tried, but were humorously unsuccessful. They tried to have me held in comtempt of court for their failure. They were not successful. They had me answer questions under oath in front of a video camera and a court reporter for several hours one day. I rather enjoyed that day. I don't think much of them as people and I'm certainly aware of unflattering things about them of which I previously had no clue, but their standards are essentially the same as they were before they tried unsuccessfully to bully me. My opinion of those standards has not changed. I express that opinion now, the same way I did before. No axe here. My hope is PADI will fix their standards. I don't wish ill on PADI, I do have a higher regard for their divers than they apparently have as I would like them to receive better training. I have a higher regard for the people carrying PADI cards than I do for the people working in PADI headquarters.

Yes, I'm aware you and others consider any negative comments about PADI to be PADI bashing. If that were a legitimate definition, I'd agree that I very often lead the bashing charge. The problem is, that is not a legitimate definition. Just because you and others believe it, doesn't make it so.