Thank heavens for PADI

[MikeFerrara]

saying once bubbled...
I got an SDI card yesterday and I'm thrilled.

Not because of better training, higher standards, etc. etc.

I'm happy because my cert number is only 6 digits.

(though I do think the SDI training standards were a little higher than those from the PADI shops around here)

Standards are uniform for al PADI shops and instructors though performance isn't.

 

[Former FLL Now MSP Diver]

Walter once bubbled...
Yes, I can add skills and refuse to issue a certification until the student has mastered those skills to my satisfaction. I do that in almost every class I teach.

For the record, I now hold three certifications from two different agencies, so I'm not tied to any single one. I'm just trying to get an understanding of what the issues are.

Has the question of consistency even been discussed within your agency? With a standard set of training standards, a student can move between different locations and the instructor can be confident of what the student has been tested on.

With consistent standards there would never be any confusion with an instructor having to guess if the student was trained in breathing without a mask. If it was not in the standards, then you proceed with the knowledge that it was not trained nor tested for.

I see nothing wrong with giving students extra knowledge that I know many instructors do (you and Mike both state you do), and I applaude folks like yourself who go above and beyond. But if the particular agency you work for doesn't require it, why bust the students chops and test for it? A student may have selected your agency to get certified on based on the standards as published, but they now find themselves with a moving target. Mike as an instructor stated he teaches the additonal skills, but rightly cannot withhold certification if they don't do these additonal skills correctly.

Please note these points are directed towards not have standardized requirements among instructors, not a discussion of the relative merits of the different standards that the various agencies have.

Marc

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Walter once bubbled...
Stephen,

What happened to make you so bitter?...

Thanks, but I don't think I'll accept your invitation to hurl childish insults back and forth.

The PADI system needs some improving. Your misrepresentations, insults and deceits all cloaked in some self - righteous claim of 'just trying to improve scuba training' serves no useful purpose.



SA

 

[-hh]

Stephen Ash once bubbled...
That’s a great way to QA an agency…Hmm…Walter will decide who should or should not teach, what can and can’t be added, what is appropriate and what isn’t. Scuba diving according to Walter will be the new industry standard. I feel safe knowing that you’ll be there to support me if I end up in court.

At least with QA per Walter, we will at least know where "The Buck" stops. From what I've read, I believe we would also see a lot more field work done by QA in the actual classrooms, which I think we've already recognized as a current deficiency. What else?

Actually, I don’t entirely disagree with you here... No one has ever said that they didn’t want to learn such and such or demanded their cert because they had completed the minimum that PADI requires.

I'm going to have to throw a flag here (sorry): this "no one" claim is pragmatically meaningless.

By definition, an OW student is an uninformed individual, meaning that they lack the basis to form an informed opinion as to what is or is not appropriate, and thus provide the opportunity to confront/disagree with their instructor. I don't want to say that all OW students are ignorant sheep, but as a broadly generalized definition, because the reason that they're taking the training is because they lack the knowledge/education, they can only be exactly that.

You simply fail to see that many of your accusations are misleading and unfair and some, simply untrue.

Some things that you think are "misleading" are the result of a difference of perspective - - how do you know what really is the truth? How do you suggest you prove that you're not blinded or biased in your views? (FWIW, I can't positively prove that I'm immune from bias, either)

It’s too bad, really. There is much about the PADI program that needs improving.

Such as?

Afterall, if we never talk about these problems, will they somehow magically fix themselves completely on their own?



-hh

 

[MikeFerrara]

FLL Diver once bubbled...


...But if the particular agency you work for doesn't require it, why bust the students chops and test for it? A student may have selected your agency to get certified on based on the standards as published, but they now find themselves with a moving target. Mike as an instructor stated he teaches the additonal skills, but rightly cannot withhold certification if they don't do these additonal skills correctly.

Please note these points are directed towards not have standardized requirements among instructors, not a discussion of the relative merits of the different standards that the various agencies have.

Marc

you're asking a valid question and I don't have a good answer. Despite standards whether RSTC, PADI or whoever dive training isn't the same everywhwere or from every instructor. From my experience with the diving public I can say for a fact that the public believes or wants to believe that one class is as good as another because they all potentially result in a card tha get's them equivilant privilages. Even if all the standards were identical you could still get a great class or a lousy class dependant on whether you went to the right shop or the wrong shop. Nothing will ever change the fact that some people care about what they do and some don't are some are talented and some aren't.

mcDonalds tries to ensure uniformity throughout by trying to make it all the same and removing the human veriability. They may be close but they're not there.

I teach the way I do because it's the only way that I feel comfortable signing the cards. If a student doesn't want the "extra stuff" they can go someplace else. I tell every student when they sign up that my classes are way different than the others in the area. They have the choice. If they want streight PADI and only the bold type, I can tell them where to get it.

 

[detroit diver]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


......
I teach the way I do because it's the only way that I feel comfortable signing the cards. If a student doesn't want the "extra stuff" they can go someplace else. I tell every student when they sign up that my classes are way different than the others in the area. They have the choice. If they want streight PADI and only the bold type, I can tell them where to get it.

Mike,

How many have walked away after you told them that your classes were different?

 

[MikeFerrara]

detroit diver once bubbled...



Mike,

How many have walked away after you told them that your classes were different?

A bunch!. Our class is longer and many don't like that at all. We're also more expensive than some (though not all) and they don't like that either. I'm sure some also think I'm full of it but I do offer to match the price of the cheapest class around if they're not happy.

Then there are the others who after talking to me and other instructors have no trouble at all making up their mind. Those are the students I'm looking for because they want to learn to dive as apposed to just buying a card for the one warm water vacation they have planned.

If I didn't require students to invest any time or effort though I'll bet I could get big money for certifications.

 

[divemed06]

Here's the best quote I've heard from a PADI Course Director...

"Take my PADI OW course..and go dive...then go and take the NAUI AOW.....and go dive....then go and take the SSI Rescue and Diver stress course and then go dive....find the agency/instructor that best suits you, your personality and your learning style and than stick with them for the rest of your dive career. If I don't see you back in my shop for your DM, I havn't done my job well and I and PADI don't deserve your patronage."

Now that's how it should be!!!

 

[Walter]

Marc,

Consistency is not an issue. There are minimum standards which YMCA has established. All instructors are required to meet or exceed those standards. Most instructors exceed those standards. You know the student has been tested on everything in the standards. It is possible (likely) the student also has additional training.

As others have already mentioned, most students are clueless when it comes to knowing what is or is not required. What the agency requires, what I've added, how this class differs from the class down the street. I try to target students who actually want to learn, not those who just want the card. Most seem to just want the card. I tell them, they don't want my class.

Stephen,

"I don't think I'll accept your invitation to hurl childish insults back and forth."

None was offered. I hope that means your last post was the end of your insults.

 

[ElectricZombie]

Walter once bubbled...

No axe to grind. PADI didn't work me over. They certainly tried, but were humorously unsuccessful. They tried to have me held in comtempt of court for their failure. They were not successful. They had me answer questions under oath in front of a video camera and a court reporter for several hours one day. I rather enjoyed that day.

What's the story? Why did you have to go to court?