Thank heavens for PADI

[diverbrian]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


I guess here we just disagree. Also note, that I don't single PADI out.

Maybe I've seen more traing than you or done more rescues or seen more people hurt (or close) who shouldn't have been. The point is that I didn't just wake up one morning mad at the agencies. On my first day as an instructor I was a real "Go PADI" kind of guy who believed everything I was tought. It was one experience after another over a course of several years that developed the opinions that I have now. I and others have proved over and over that with a little effort and interest in your students there can be a dramatic difference and the students have way more fun. I mean way more, it's not even close. And...I've done it both ways.

Even if you disagree it might be something to think about.

I think that the least observant of the people here know that you single out poor training and not PADI. Where the differences are is in what many of us believe adequate training is.

I won't go so far as to say that this is phys ed class. The instructors at our LDS are sticklers on neutral buoyancy. You have to stay off the bottom in our training areas or the students WILL bolt due to the silt-outs.

You had to start somewhere as an instructor. You learned and developed a different way through experience. That experience cannot be rushed or given freely.

I personally feel that just as a parent has to let a child make some mistakes growing up to learn why not to do things a certain way, at some point you cannot give all the answers to all the students. Yes, I have been involved with helping people out of incidents underwater that weren't with our group. Everybody that I dive with has. Most of these have been at our favorite quarry's shallow end. One of these was shipwreck diving up here. I have witnessed many more.

I know that there are some unsafe instructors out there. There were more when the sport started, I am sure. There will be when we are gone (and I plan to have a long diving career). As much as it breaks our hearts to watch inadequately trained students get hurt, how much more would it do so than to not have them trained at all because they feel that the course is impossible to pass and then get a bootleg gas fill and get killed.

Just as you had to start somewhere as a diver and an instructor, so does everybody else. There is a middle ground between a cave diver's idea of good neutral buoyancy and an elevator in the Caribbean (again, I have seen both extremes). If we start the student in the middle, I feel that they will aspire to learn enough to do DIRF, Advanced Nitrox, etc.... and take their skills to another level if that is where they want to go. If they don't, they will find a course or buddy to teach them to the level that suits them be it diving once a year in the Caribbean or every weekend during shipwreck season up here.

 

[-hh]

concollective once bubbled...


What is a BC? Just kidding.

Scary part is that I wasn't kidding. That student was my future wife, who was at the time held one of YMCA Lifeguard program certifications. She chose to not go for her Checkout dives, and the experience was bad enough that it put her off of watersport activies for many, many years.


-hh

 

[-hh]

scubasean once bubbled...


I didn't see anything about local diving conditions in the quote...Does the standard actually restrict additions to the curriculum to only those things that would benefit you locally?

The inference is that PADI expects things to be taught to the Standards, no less and no more.

The chapter that Drew cited is effectively a CYA Liability clause that says that the Agency cannot be held liable for any "real world" environment: the Instructor's the one that gets hung out to dry for being delinquent if he doesn't faithfully teach the Student all the unique things of the local diving environment.

The Agencies have gotten very good in shielding themselves from liability. For example, you might want to find the December 30, 1988 episode of ABC's TV show "20/20", which included a piece called "SCUBA Diving - What you may not know". I have a transcript of the piece stashed on disk somewhere, from the ancient Peter Yee NASA Archives...



-hh

 

[-hh]

gedunk once bubbled...
Here is list of PADI professionals who got the boot.

http://www.padi.com/english/common/courses/qm/report.asp

Feel free to browse the archive section as the above list is for only the current year. I guess i'm just biased when i say this looks like a relatively active Q&A program to me.

55 suspensions listed. And if you dig deeper, the information on this subject is really quite interesting:

Year #expelled
1991 13
1992 3
1993 10
1994 3
1995 8
1996 9
1997 3
1998 0
1999 0
2000 33

This data was gleaned from PADI's website three years ago; sorry for the gap for 2001. When presented this way, it looks downright embarassing through the '90s, doesn't it? It's little wonder then why they removed this info from their website

Note that what's also missing from their reporting is how many complaints they get, and their effective "conviction rate".

What's also missing is the cause: PADI kicks out a lot of instructors not for standards violations, but simple non-payment of professional dues.

There is always "more to the story" than meets the eye.


-hh

 

[MikeFerrara]

I don't have the number to back it up but I believe that financial irresponsibility is high on the list.

Something that should be remembered is that their stated goal isn't to kick instructors out but to streighten them out.

My complaint is that instead of sending out those stupid questionairs they need to get out in the field and watch some classes. Around here you don't need to go far to find a standards violation or questionable judgement.

 

[Former FLL Now MSP Diver]

-hh once bubbled...


Scary part is that I wasn't kidding. That student was my future wife, who was at the time held one of YMCA Lifeguard program certifications. She chose to not go for her Checkout dives, and the experience was bad enough that it put her off of watersport activies for many, many years.
-hh

It would seem to me that if she didn't know those two very elementary terms she didn't even read the course materials that mention them a number of times in the manuals and covered in videos.

Maybe it was the instructors fault for not flunking her out before hand for not doing the course work.

Marc

 

[fins wake]

My complaint about backward kicking wasn't that I wasn't taught it in my openwater course. It was that it wasn't even suggested as an option or demonstrated as a skill that I might aspire to learn. And yet it should be SO basic!

Seriously now: why? I'm genuinely at a loss to understand the importance attached by some people to teaching newbie divers to fin backwards when there are so many more important skills to learn at that stage!

Thanks for being honest. But what do you mean, you've never had a situation come up that has 'required' backward finning? You're kidding, right? Right? Tell me you're kidding.

I have actually come across situations which would require backward finning, once or twice in a wreck and the odd time in a cave. But in open-water diving? Never! There's never been a time when I had to fin backwards on a regular OW fun dive, simply because I always have the option of simply turning and swimming back. As do all recrational divers ...

If I've ever done so it is for the same purpose that I stand on my head or do various other hovers. To impress newbie divers ... There, I've said it. And only because I - genuinely - think this is the main reason most techie-type divers train for this skill in a recreational setting. (At least I'm honest about it.)

Students want to emulate their instructors.

Indeed they do. Monkey see, monkey do. I'm no different.

An instructor like Mike Ferarra, who I would assume is probably rock solid in the water with perfect horizontal trim and absolute control over his buoyancy, is the best way for students to visualize where they want to be as experienced divers. It gives them a goal.

I agree entirely. The one single thing that impressed me the most about my instructors was their superb trim.

These instructors were in chronological order: a PADI OWSI, a PADI OWSI, a PADI course director, a PADI course director, an SSI instructor, an NSS-CDS instructor (and world-class explorer), a PADI MI, an IANTD Tec Instructor and a PADI course director ...

Every single one of these people had - and have - superb skills (the NSS-CDS guy, who also does NACD, TDI, IANTD and PADI courses [if you really ask nicely] is still the best diver I've ever had the privilege of diving with, but all the people above were excellent).

Point is, GUE didn't invent great diving skills and they're not the only proponent of the art. That said, their people are - in the main- top-notch and the course is undoubtedly an eye-opener for many people, particularly for the ones who haven't done cave courses with the NACD, NSS, TDI or IANTD ...

If you hate NAUI "arrogance" you probably think GUE is the devil.

This is the reason I probably never will take a GUE course. And that's fine. There are plenty of other agencies out there with world-class instructors. And yes, the NAUI people on this board do come across as a bit arrogant. Shame really, because my first OW instructor (PADI) was a NAUI crossover who baked in a lot of NAUI ideals in my own course. I've always liked NAUI. So far ...

I'll just remind everybody that ALL agencies have rotten apples, and there are people in ALL agencies that break standards. (By now, the more reflective people with good memories on this board should see the warning lights flashing ...)

Point is, go with the best OW instructor you can find. Mike F is probably one of them, judging by his many favourable reviews and - generally - savvy comments (when not discussing "brand X").

But would I recommend any single recreational agency based on its standards? No. They're all good. I wholeheartedly refuse the notion that PADI is "sub-standard" compared to the other agencies. It's a lie. A fallacy.

It's admittedly an interesting debating topic, but that's all. There is no merit to this argument.

PS! Margaret, the main reason I've jumped on your comments is precisely because as a newbie diver you are writing honestly and without malice. You are, for example, far more specific in your criticism than the other PADI bashers. Hence it's easy to actually "fence in the topic at hand" using your posts. That's all. So it's not personal. You seem a nice person. DS.

 

[newdiverAZ]

but what about those of us who have gotten good training and our happy with our agency? I'm not saying I am the best diver in the world. When I started to drive I wasn't the best either, but now I am. In comparing intro to kool-aid to O/W, intro to kool-aid is actually geared at refining the skills you already have, at least from what i've read, hence the requirement for being o/w certified to take the class. No matter what anyone says about Padi. it is not an Agency that makes things bad, it's people within the agency that do this, ie the bad seeds, and yes padi probably could do a lil more trimming of the fat, but from the people that I've dealt with since I started diving, I've been very impressed with all of them. Dealt with Padi people in California, Arizona, Cancun, and Ft. Lauderdale and all were pretty good, haven't seen a bad seed yet, I guess I've just been lucky, guess the old saying I'd rather be lucky than good has some merit.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Whirling Girl once bubbled...

...But really I think the answer to that question is that I'm just, well, retarded. ...
Margaret

I'm offended by your use of the word "retarded".

In fact, it really ticks me off! How ignorant! No apologies, please. Just don't use that word again in such a manner.

HOW DID THE SCUBABOARD POLICE MISS THIS ONE? GEEZ!!! COME ON GUYS! If you're going to censor what is said around here don't miss the obvious!

SA

 

[-hh]

FLL Diver once bubbled...


It would seem to me that if she didn't know those two very elementary terms she didn't even read the course materials that mention them a number of times in the manuals and covered in videos.

Maybe it was the instructors fault for not flunking her out before hand for not doing the course work.

Marc

Perhaps, but someone who graduated Magna Cum Laude and with an optional dual major can probably be expected to suck in the course work without a sweat (IIRC, she got the highest score in the entire class on the written test). Oh, and this was in the "Pre Videos" days...

No, the reason was more likely because this subject "class from hell" literally didn't use or have SPG's or BCD's for use in the pool training sessions.

Or Octopi for that matter, either. The training equipment was literally a tank on a backpack, one 1st stage, one 2nd stage, mask, fins, snorkel, bathing suit.




-hh