Thank heavens for PADI

[jepuskar]

I said juicy not BORING!

 

[scubasean]

-hh once bubbled...


However, this doesn't mean that a PADI instructor is allowed to include, say, Altitude protocols, when it is not required under the "local diving conditions" criteria, does it?

-hh

I didn't see anything about local diving conditions in the quote. It only mentioned ability to dive safely. (and I'm not an instructor, nor do I desire to be one...)

Does the standard actually restrict additions to the curriculum to only those things that would benefit you locally? If so, then define "locally"? heh

Lake Tahoe at 6k ft. is as close as Monterey (sea level). Which is local? No other regular dive sites that I can think of are closer than either of those.

I am not sure I've seen anything quoted that is preventing the addition of material, unless I've been totally asleep (altogether possible, indeed).

Cheers,

Sean

 

[Walter]

Drew,

I thought you followed my posts more closely than that. I've actually defended PADI on this board in the past when PADI was getting blamed for things that were standards violations.

 

[Warren_L]

Whirling Girl once bubbled...


Well, basic doesn't necessarily mean easy. Neutral buoyancy isn't easy either, but it's basic too. At least in my opinion.

In fact, good diving skills are hard, man.

But really I think the answer to that question is that I'm just, well, retarded. I know alot of people who learned it alot faster than I did. My buddy flooded his mask several times watching me try to do this skill. It must have been hilarious. I was not amused. But at least I stuck with it.

I think you are right on this one Margaret. Learning the basics is an important thing to do, which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how easy it is to learn. You recognize that these are the important building blocks to forming a basis to be a good and safe diver, and then you can build on this once the basics are mastered. And no, you are not retarded for taking so long to learn something (or anyone else for that matter) - you recognize that there are important skills to learn, and the important thing is that you learn them regardless of how long it takes. Credit goes to you for sticking with it until you got it!!

 

[MikeFerrara]

Lawman once bubbled...
Which one has the question for me? Whats the question?
I don't want to read them all.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lawman once bubbled...
ve vill teach you how to dive! ve vil gif you the
standards!! You VIL meet the standards of
the Hitler School of Diving or ve vil make you
hurt all over like the pig dogs you are!!!!


Welcome to Mikes first orientation class....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Is that what you really think of some one who uses the standards to the advantage of their student and doesn't like seeing student sent out unprepared for the most minor of problems? What have I said that would cause you to compare me to hitler?

 

[Lawman]

Thats what I think about going off the deep
end on the subject of basic dive training.

Post after post about how inferior everyones
training has been. Many divers can live with the
idea that they won't be diving to 200', don't have
perfect bouyancy and that they didn't go to the
Harvard School of Diving. They're just ordinary
rec divers who do this for fun. PADI isn't our
Alma Mater, just an outfit that taught us how
to do something we enjoy.

This is Phys Ed class. Not brain surgery.:upset:

 

[concollective]

ElectricZombie once bubbled...


PADI standards and training policies are the main basis for the many criticisms they receive. These manuals and texts are readily available for review. The standards are low and the training is generally brief. One of the biggest problems with PADI is that the Instructors are not allowed to deviate from PADI material in any way. Additional skills or information that would actually make them decent divers is not allowed. (NAUI does allow this, I'm not sure about the others) The PADI ITC program allows people with zero diving skill to become Instructors...they in turn perpetuate complacency and poor skills.

As for my personal experiences, the LDS here was a PADI facility for a long time. I met the guy who owns the shop and teaches all the classes. This guy was clueless. I've got a guy that I OW certified last semester that can make this guy look like a drunken muppet underwater. I've had the chance to observe the product of his work when some of his students come to dive off the coast here. They were so bad and such a safety risk, the boat no longer allows them on board.

Could this just be 1 bad PADI Instructor? Maybe, but not likely. Based on their standards and the numerious PADI Instructors and divers that I have met, I would say that PADI is at fault.

As I said before, the other agencies also need work, but PADI is the biggest and worst offender.

All very good points. Thanks for the explanation, EZ.

 

[concollective]

-hh once bubbled...


I've had training from both. I didn't think anything elite about what I had been taught for many years. What opened my eyes were things that I thought were so basic that they would be universal for all divers.

Case in point: regardless of who you were certified by, what would your reaction be when you're talking about diving with a person who has taken all of the pool & class work, and is about to go for their OW checkouts who says:

"What's a SPG?"

and

"What's a BC?"

I kid you not.

I originally thought it was just the bad luck of a bad instructor and not Agency-specific, but over the years and a lot of conversations, of the many things I've found, one of the dirty secrets in one of the Agencies is that Standards Violations rarely result in the boot, even when the report to QA comes from one of their Instructors, and former QA Investigators at that!

This is when I really realized just what some organization's true priorities are when it comes to decisions that might adversely affect their cash flow and competitive market share...

FYI, historically, the founders of PADI came from NAUI, and a big part of their dispute was because NAUI was organized as a Non-Profit and who listed Education as their first priority. Now NAUI's been particularly stupid of late on a lot of things, but lets not confuse basic business operations stupidity with these issues.




Simplest answer would be because the NAUI instructor is allowed to exceed Agency standards within his training criteria, whereas a PADI is not.

Similarly, the NAUI Instructor is expected to apply the "Would I allow a Loved One to dive with this indvidual?" criteria, although this generally applies for OW.

FWIW, you might want to check out SSI...I've heard good things about them for years.

However, the quality of training is always going to come down to the quality of the Instructor, and no Agency has a foolproof lock on that factor. There's good and bad within all of the Agencies, and it takes some time and experience on your part to really figure out who's good and who's not.

-hh

What is a BC? Just kidding. Thanks for taking the time to set out a responsible criticism of PADI. Maybe it turns out that I get to NAUI's AOW and discover that PADI's OW training left me seriously undereducated (though I do have to say that I was one of those really nerdy, enthusiastic, and diligent students who read the manual over and over -- not that you can learn how to achieve neutral buoyancy by reading a book repeatedly). In any event, I appreciate the persuasive response and will give it a lot of thought.

 

[TCDiver1]

Here is list of PADI professionals who got the boot.

http://www.padi.com/english/common/courses/qm/report.asp

Feel free to browse the archive section as the above list is for only the current year. I guess i'm just biased when i say this looks like a relatively active Q&A program to me.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Lawman once bubbled...
Thats what I think about going off the deep
end on the subject of basic dive training.

Post after post about how inferior everyones
training has been. Many divers can live with the
idea that they won't be diving to 200', don't have
perfect bouyancy and that they didn't go to the
Harvard School of Diving. They're just ordinary
rec divers who do this for fun. PADI isn't our
Alma Mater, just an outfit that taught us how
to do something we enjoy.

This is Phys Ed class. Not brain surgery.:upset:

I guess here we just disagree. Also note, that I don't single PADI out.

Maybe I've seen more traing than you or done more rescues or seen more people hurt (or close) who shouldn't have been. The point is that I didn't just wake up one morning mad at the agencies. On my first day as an instructor I was a real "Go PADI" kind of guy who believed everything I was tought. It was one experience after another over a course of several years that developed the opinions that I have now. I and others have proved over and over that with a little effort and interest in your students there can be a dramatic difference and the students have way more fun. I mean way more, it's not even close. And...I've done it both ways.

Even if you disagree it might be something to think about.