Reg Configuration - Thoughts?

[tbone1004]

what's the place for the PADI system, and disadvantage of primary donate, especially since PADI allows primary donate with the use of Air2's? Wasn't going to bring that debate up, but you opened that door.

PADI allows and trains primary donate due to the use of Air2's, because of that, I would just commit to the primary donate paradigm unless you have plans to get heavily involved with BSAC.

 

[DaveV]

In my latest configuration, I have been diving a standard length primary hose, and a standard 40" hose (but in bright yellow) for my octo, which I wear on a short necklace, routed under my armpit. I have found this to be the best of the configurations I have tried, as either reg is available for immediate donation, and I never have to "find" my octo; it's always right there under my chin. This covers a "controlled" air sharing where I would typically donate my octo, as well as "emergency" situations where the OOG diver is going to steal my primary. I have no problem donating either reg, and ALWAYS go over these configs and procedures during pre-dive check. My advice is to find what works best for you - just make sure you go over procedures with your buddy! I don't see this as reinventing the wheel, just honing the best place to wear an octo to keep it accessible and clean.

As an aside, by son was trained last year (SSI) and the SSI OW materials give 3 equal options for sharing air: 1) Donate primary, 2) donate Octo, and 3) donate pony. In his class, they spent the most practice time donating the primary. As a family, we practice all options on a regular basis.

 

[dbulmer]

Virtually no reservations about either - both have their place and are (in theory at least) perfectly good systems if both divers are aware of, are trained and use them. I can see that both have advantages and disadvantages depending on circumstances. training (of both divers) etc.

One of my concerns with long hose is that, for the vast majority of recreational divers, they haven't seen it and are not familiar with the concept of primary donate/ take (which we all know was originally a technical diving concept to allow air sharing in tight spaces). With that thought, pushing primary donate on a rec diver with no experience or training might increase stress levels in an emergency

One of my concerns with the PADI (recreational) system is that if a diver is panicked and makes a grab for my primary as some suggest would happen (and I have no doubt it might in some cases), I then have to unclip the reg for use (minor issue I know). Another is that being clipped or stuffed the regs tend to hang out of a streamlined profile.

I guess I was trying to find a solution that I thought provided the best of both:
1) more streamlined than dangling from a pocket/d ring as it would be under my chin
2) both regs available and visible for take or donate with the remaining one readily available for me.

Neil,
I'm just going to comment on the long hose config as that is what I use (from 2003 onward - the config is better known today than it was) and have more direct experience with.

Before continuing I just want to say that a standard system works well for many people and I'm not a long hose evangelist. That said, you said:-

"pushing primary donate on a rec diver with no experience or training might increase stress levels in an emergency".

OK, in an emergency, no matter what kit you have, stress levels will go up. In a panic situation some divers might grab your primary - others may not. It's a panic situation, all bets are off - it's flight or fight underwater.

The trick is never to let stress become an issue in the first place - keep panic away. If you are diving with an unknown stay close and ask the buddy how much gas they have. If they don't respond, look at their SPG. It's very easy to look at someones SPG without them knowing - better divers know when someone is close.

Be proactive - if the diver runs Low on Air (a more likely scenario) you can give yourself plenty of time to donate and all that diver has to do is accept the offered reg. Little to no stress - here's a reg, breathe off it.

Take a look at the S-drill on youtube. Before a dive, go through the S drill on the surface ie on the boat or shore. Donate the long hose and place the backup in your mouth. This shows the diver your kit and what to do and it also demonstrates your concern for their safety.

Regular practice and buddy awareness can reduce the chances of primary donation going wrong. BTW It can go wrong ! It's rare but it can happen.

How often you dive, how often you practice , who you dive with and where you dive are as important as the kit you use.

One more thing - I know you are going to Egypt later in the year. One of the things you'll notice good DMs doing is asking divers how much gas they have. Try observing that - I won't say any more - watch what happens.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Where is all the recreational panic concerns coming from? You tell your buddy to take the reg from your mouth. If he forgets and is looking in the golden triangle and you are oblivious to his intents at this time (i.e., you fail to stick a second stage into his face) then what.... in 3 seconds .. chances are he is going to take the one in your mouth... you then switch to the necklace reg. Everyone is happy. If they calm down, you might see about switching regs on the ascent, but I personally would be concentrating on going up.

As mentioned, the use of AIR2's is not uncommon and that REQUIRES primary donate (or you got a real cluster).. so the primary donate has already been given the seal of approval from all the main training agencies.. yes?

 

[PfcAJ]

Primary take is the original, back from double hose days (no octo). Primary take is common with air2 type units. Primary take isn't something new.

 

[admikar]

I find this to be the case on non-turret regulators. If you are in a drysuit you have to run the primary down the bottom of the turret, but the best way if in a wetsuit is to rotate the first stage flat and have the primary and inflator come down on the side of the turret and secondary out the bottom similar to the left post of doubles. This prevents the bowing of the primary hose and provides a really sleek hose routing for singles.

Do you have any pictures of this configuration? Not that I find it annoying, but always open for learning new stuff.

 

[tbone1004]

dear lord, I just liked a post from DumpsterDiver, what is the world coming to?!?
Primary take is accepted by everyone except BSAC to my knowledge that strictly forbids it, though they all tend to prefer primary donate...

admikar, go to 2:10 in this video to see what it looks like. I do prefer to put the primary hose in front of the wing however
Equipment Configuration | Global Underwater Explorers
If you go to this link as well, scroll about halfway down. It looks like the left post regulator from a set of doubles, but the primary slides over to the port right behind the drysuit inflator, and the drysuit has to be a bit shorter obviously.

 

[Colliam7]

Would you be happy diving with it on a buddy?

As described, no. For several reasons:

1. It is - from my perspective - inefficient.
2. It does NOT facilitate 'primary donate', which I have come to accept as the best possible configuration, and best possible approach in an OOA situation.

Basically, I do not agree with your subsequent statement that, 'pushing primary donate on a rec diver with no experience or training might increase stress levels in an emergency'. In fact, I think that is a very likely scenario (that they will go for what is in your mouth), so why not make it as easy as possible for them to take the reg that: a) they can readily see, b) they can easily access, and c) you know is working, at the moment they need it (because YOU have been breathing from it immediately before).

And, it is easy to configure a 'standard' hose length system (if there is such a thing as 'standard' lengths) to meet those objectives. Simply use the second stage on your longer, 40" hose as your 'primary'. Use the second stage on your shorter (32-36") hose as your alternate, positioned for YOUR ready use on a bungee necklace. The OOA diver sees and takes what is in your mouth (good), or you actively donate what is in your mouth (better) on a manageable 40" hose, and you immediately go to your alternate on the shorter (32-36") hose that is on the bungee.

You can make it even easier for the OOA diver. Make the primary more visible: if your (formerly alternate) second stage hose is yellow, great. If your (formerly alternate) second stage has a yellow purge cover / housing, great. This system conforms to any interpretation of the PADI system - the second stage that the OOA diver is to use is in the 'triangle', at the very top in fact. There is nothing in the PADI standards or recommendation that prohibits 'primary donate'. In fact, PADI currently recommends 'active donation' of a second stage to an OOA diver - no more sitting back with your arms outstretched waiting for the poor OOA diver to find the alternate.

Two considerations apply, however. 1) if the (formerly alternate) second stage that is now the primary is a cheap, needlessly detuned, poor breathing second stage, you may want to change it out - after all, it is what you are now breathing from except when sharing air with another diver. I use identical second stages for both primary and alternate, so it isn't an issue. 2) I find a 70 degree adapter (rather than a 90) to be a bit more functional for use.

This approach definitely meets your goal of streamlining. It does not make 'both regs available and visible for take or donate'. But, I see no need for that. If the primary is the second stage that is primarily visible (OK, bad pun) to an OOA diver, there is no need for the alternate, under your chin, to be available for donation, or for an OOA diver to grab. That one is for you. Therefore, I slightly disagree with the one aspect of the configuration that Lamar shows in the video tbone linked - it makes no sense to have the yellow purge cover on the alternate second stage under the chin. It is better positioned on the one in your mouth.

 

[rhwestfall]

I've also got to bring back something that, IIRC, T-bone said before...

We are (more than likely) horizontal in the water, not standing upright. This "triangle" mentality is really not as it seems (it was when you were kneeling on the bottom of the pool, but let's not go there now). The point being, the source of air is in one place - at the donor's face region, in their hand being passed, or (if necessary) in their mouth.....

the "triangle" is somewhere under the diver....... I truly believe this is something to be addressed in a revision to the training system information...

 

[uncfnp]

Make the primary more visible: if your (formerly alternate) second stage hose is yellow, great. If your (formerly alternate) second stage has a yellow purge cover / housing, great.

This is what I have. The purge cover has been changed to yellow since this photo was taken...[/quote]