Recreational rebreathers - what is holding them back?

[jptrealty]

Here ARE THE PROBLEMS:

1) I THINK THE WORST OF ALL.....MISSINFORMATION......

The other day I walked into a dive shop (a popular chain in NY, and NJ this location was on 6th Ave. in the teens in Manhattan) and asked a diver and employee (the long haired guy with a good tan) the following (I bored and wanted to break someones balls)..." I saw these cool machines called rebreathers....how do I learn to use one??? The reply was as follows " If you want to DIE thats the equipment to use!!!!!" at this point 2 other people were in the store listening to this load of garbage that continued to flow from his mouth for the next 10 minutes. The so called diver told us that rebreathers have killed hundreds of people are unsafe and that the technology is faulty!! Having heard enough I dropped the hammer and blasted this guy in front of his clients...................and was then asked to leave the store and never come back, but before leaving I refered the two divers to highly respected rebreather instructors in NY (joe and Andy), hopefully good people (like Joe and Andy) will be able to uncorrupt the minds of innocent divers!

2) COST

This has topic has already been hit though...the sky is blue, waters wet, women lie, and diving is expensive...such is life

Cheers

 

[caveseeker7]

I for one think it's a combination of two factors, high(er) cost and narrow minded or uneducated people.
The first one is very relative, of course, the second one includes both divers and people catering to them.

Cost:
Andrew pretty much gave the lowdown on initial cost to purchase a rebreather and get trained on it. Add to that a decent bailout tank and reg for anything but shallow rec dives.
But diving is always expensive, if you want cheap play Boccia.

Look at the cost for OC gear, there is a broad spread. One diver's OC PADI wheel is another's Suunto D9. You can spend $70 or $200 bucks on a pair of fins, half to twice of that for a mask. Same with rebreathers, one diver's Sport Kiss is another's Ouroboros.

One thing is certain, when you start adding He in your tanks, OC diving gets really expensive and CCRs start paying off sooner or later.


Narrow minded/uneducated people:
I don't necessarily mean that in a bad way, but many people simply don't know enough about rebreathers to make an educted judgement. They know a little about the benefits, a little about the disadvantages and/or dangers. Some make up their mind, others don't bother to think about it.

Same for dive shops, resorts and boats. Many just don't know a hell of a lot and rather not bother. A few, probably the really narrow minded ones, will hold out. Others will change their tune when they realize the time has come for money to be made. Same as it was with nitrox, or with back plate and wing setups.

There are plenty of locations support rebreather diving, they wouldn't be there if they couldn't make a profit. You have to look harder, and are limited in your choices, but they can be found in many of the good diving locations.

Ron, you made some curious statements:

However the reality is most divers don't need them, and if fact could not really use them for the diving that they do.

What makes you think that? Have you looked at the profiles of the majority of rebreather divers? Or their activities underwater?

Or is it just a look at at your own diving and the relization that you simply have no need for a rebreather. Nothing wrong with that, Ron. They're tools for diving, just like there are hammer and chisels, cave reels or cannister lights. Not everyone has need for those, either.

So, I go get rebreather certified, spend 30K on a rebreather...

That's roughly twice of what the most expennsive CCR costs right now, and about six times the price of the least expensive one ... unless you pay in pesos.

... then travel with all this stuff to COZ ...

Don't know if there is any or any good RB support in Coz, never been there.
But down the road on the main land you'll find Pro-Tec offering excellent RB support, and even further south Protech Belize providing the same quality.

... dreaming my BT will be limited only to my NDL requirements which are WAY beyond what anyone can do without a rebreather ... Unfortunately I run into a problem. No one else on ANY boat is diving these things, and no boat captain is willing to wait while I do my two hour dive because they have trip schedules.

Then you picked the wrong boat. The wrong people to travel with.

But it all depends on where you're diving ... here on the west coast most boats do three to four dives per day, all with a one hour window. Depending on the unit you're using you can set up your unit once and dive all day. No disassembly, no waiting in line for a fresh fill.

Or you pick one of the six packs and dive with other rebreather divers.

Even at Catalina's UW Park, during the summer you have piles of divers, sometimes over 50 tanks waiting to get filled (and their alu rentals getting preferred treatment). Again, dive all day at your leisure avoiding the ridiculous lines with the best mix for your depth.

The benefits may be less than for a trimix or cave expedition, but it's there.
Probably not enough to justify a $10K CCR, but as I said, they're not for everyone and you have to make an educated decision if one will work for you or not.

 

[caveseeker7]

The other day I walked into a dive shop ...

Sad, but true. Have had the same experience once or twice. :bluthinki

...the sky is blue, waters wet, women lie, and diving is expensive...such is life

And we learn to live with it:
Wear sun glasses that change the sky's color and drysuits, don't listen to women, lie right back and spend less money on them.
Ain't life great!

 

[ken chung ar]

Here ARE THE PROBLEMS:
The other day I walked into a dive shop (a popular chain in NY, and NJ this location was on 6th Ave. in the teens in Manhattan) and asked a diver and employee (the long haired guy with a good tan) the following (I bored and wanted to break someones balls)..." I saw these cool machines called rebreathers....how do I learn to use one??? The reply was as follows " If you want to DIE thats the equipment to use!!!!!" at this point 2 other people were in the store listening to this load of garbage that continued to flow from his mouth for the next 10 minutes.

hi jptrealty, interesting! i thought people in new york are much more open to novelty, but on my second thought, people are people wherever they live.

here in japan, that's exactly why rebreathers are VERY unpopular. even leading diving instructors say that rebreathers are dangerous and that u die using them, even though they have never used them. people are conservative and not looking for other possibilities for enjoying their diving lives. even EANx is unpopular here, and the majority of divers, however avid and keen, are fully content with the air OC system.

i have been trying to persuade them that they may have a completely different diving experience with rebreathers. there are several great advantages with rebreathers that compensate for their costs, and getting closer to fish is only one of them.

as my main task UW is to take pictures, there is nothing more important than being able to get closer to my targets. diving my Dolphin, a manta ray hovers above my head, and a shrimpgoby holds its body up in the water in front of my nose. that's the kind of the scene u can rarely see with the OC system.

ken chung ar
frantic Dolphin diver

 

[DiveTub]

I don't think they are being held back, at least not here in Australia.
We did a quick survey the other day and found that rebreathers down under have gone ballistic in numbers this year. Largely due to the Sport Kiss and Prism’s. We believe there are over 160 CCR's in the country.

I don't think cost is much of an issue anymore, I mean you look at the Sport Kiss, and Sting Ray, they cost about the same as a full technical OC Rig.

Misinformation spawned by internet forums seems to be the biggest killer of the CCR market, I mean just look at this thread alone there are a dozen remarks that are bull****, every time I jump on SB all I see is Stefan and others correcting people on and putting out fires on stupid statements they read somewhere on the internet or made up in their head!

But that's just my Not So Humble Opinion

Cheers
Chris

 

[caveseeker7]

Thanks for some insight into the japanese market, that certanly explains the faith of the Fieno.

Chris, you're right there is a huge downside to the web when it comes to rebreathers.
On the other hand information has never been so accessable for so many people, and
brought so many divers from such a variety of places together. Personally I think the
advantages here outweight the disadvantages, especially for those willing to learn enough
to be able to recognize BS when they see it.

 

[DiveTub]

Hey Stefan
I agree the correct information is out there for those that want to look, RBW is the best example of this. I think the next couple of years we are going to see an explosion of sales in the CCR market. I for one can't wait.

Cheers
Chris

 

[wedivebc]

Interesting replies....

I have 80 logged dives and have been diving for 5 years. This past Saturday I had the opportunity to try out the Sport KISS and Megladon rebreathers. It was a basic try out dive, 10 min on each unit. Plus other info. I have read the book Mastering Rebreathers as well. And well, I must say that I see plenty of need for recreational rebreathers in the general scuba market.

I agree, that joe bag of donuts who dives maybe 1 time a year - its really not that big of a deal - he probably rents gear any how.

But for the rest of us, the folks who dive frequently throughout the year, but are not avid tech divers (no insult to most of you, but most divers aren't technical in nature) - would benefit tremendously from a recreational rebreather. It gets even BETTER when you get into tech diving (ie eliminating stage bottles, doubles, etc).

Consider the cost of a nice setup, $1000 easy, maybe not including computer.

What if the price of a RB came down close to that of a regular SCUBA setup? I believe that will be the day when RB's will finally break head first into the market.

I for one would sure like to hear YOUR impressions of the 2 units based on your try dive.

 

[jepuskar]

I would love to see that too Chris, but the downside is...more users, more chance for incidents, more misinformation, etc etc... We know how one rebreather death can stir all sorts of controversy as compared to an OC death.

Rebreathers really do get a bad wrap overall. Those like Stefan have their work cut out for them. I'm purely OC at the moment, but I have lurked here for well over a year, have done the homework on some units, both SCR and CCR and can possibly provide a useful opinion on this subject...

Part of the hesitation for me is ( in order of importance)

1) Do I really need this for the diving I do?
2) Can I accept the responsibility of maintaining this and diving it properly?
3) Cost

No, I can't justify owning a rebreather now. I do about 2 weeks a year in warm clear water, but the majority of my diving is in a cold quarry. You move my arse to warm water, where I can take pictures of something useful and now #1 is a YES. Longer scrubber durations, warm gas, longer bottom times, no bubbles....possible better shots...I'm game.

But that still leaves #2 and 3. Once I decide I could use this device....can I accept the added responsibility with it? I'm not sure on this one....they are less forgiving and human error does play a major role. Proper training is a must ofcourse, but we are all human. Unless you get bad air, OC is pretty straight forward. The sensors on a rebreather are not always accurate, did I pack that canister right, is my gas on...let double check for the 5th time. It certainly is a trust issue for me once I get to #2 PO2 monitors and even CO2 monitors now are great and help with trust to a certain extent.

How do you overcome the trust issue or is it just the opposite..never trust your unit? your looking at your PO2 monitors and all three say 1.3 or close to it.....does this make you warm/fuzzy..are you confident your PO2 is actually at 1.3?

As far as #3 goes...cost....once #1 and #2 are out of the way, I dont care what i pay as long as I feel confident in the unit, my training - especially the instructor-, and that I am guaranteed good pics.

That is how I look at rebreathers as of right now.....do you think that is the average recreational way of looking at them?

 

[DiveTub]

Hi Jeps
Good post !! And I agree with your points from an experienced recreational diver POF you hit the nail on the head.

The only one I would question, the amount of time and effort you need to put into maintaining a CCR it is not that great, it is a myth, it takes me 30 minutes to prep the units I dive for a full weekend I dont need to open or touch it for the duration, and 30 minutes at the end of the weekend to clean and store it. Most breather divers love the prepping of their units, it’s like foreplay

I agree breathers are not for everyone, and not everyone can afford them or does enough diving to justify the initial outlay of cash for a unit and training, and its great that people interested like yourself take the time and effort to do the research and ask the questions, instead of just talking "death box"

As for the trust thing, I am still a Newbie on breathers, with a ton of knowledge still to learn
40 hours Dolphin SCR
35 Hours Sport Kiss
30 hours PRISM

I now only dive the PRISM as it suits my diving, and I just feel so comfy on it, I think more so than the 1500 hours previous on OC, I fully trust the unit to do what it does (took me about 20 dives), I now just watch the HUD, if it gives me a warning I do what I need to to fix the problem, and if it all goes to the crap, I feel my training and skills are enough that I can get myself out of the water alive, just like OC but with more options.

I know others will and do say your unit will try and kill you at every opportunity and you should not trust it. IMHO this is just more crap Hype from
1 Breather divers talking tough
2 Uneducated Divers that don't want to learn about them
3 Dive Instructors and professionals that are scared they are being left behind

I know for a fact I will never dive OC when pleasure diving ever again, I would rather not dive than have to strap on a noisy, cold, bubble maker. I reckon anyone that has spent any amount of time on a CCR would feel pretty much the same way.

Cheers
Chris