Other Divers "Unsure" about the Sidemount setup - How do I present it?

[fdog]

LOL - Seriously? Eric, I thought you more broad-thinking than that!

"I use sidemount because it is best for me in a doubles-required situation. Why, frankly, is no one's business."

Why can't you readers just accept that?

As for the showing up in attitude . . . I've dived this rig with this instructors dives for over a year. There's no attitude, he knew it coming in, he is simply expressing a lack of confidence as expressed by the other students . . . and by himself, IMO. I have no problem with that. Fair enuff. I OWE him to build that confidence, and owe that to anyone with whom I dive.

"Should've taken . . . sidemount instructor" . . . Do you honestly think I don't know that? Let's see, there's "support your LDS", there's only one LDS, and trusted, experienced sidemount instructors are a state or two away.

You're right, I brought this scrutiny on myself . . . I am happy to do so, and want to represent sidemount the very best I can to my itty-bitty community.

Which IS, by the way, the OP question.

Jax, while I empathize with your basic problem of getting sidemount accepted, I am sure you understand the red flag you're throwing up here and how it doesn't help your situation.

I've been presented with a take-it-on-faith ultimatum before; I declined the dive.


All the best, James

 

[Jax]

My instructors know, James, . . . I just don't believe I owe an explanation of why sidemount is best for me, to a Internet world of strangers.

That isn't the point of this. The point is that I need to know the best way ahead to inspire confidence.

 

[fdog]

Ah ha! I understand.


FWIW, I have yet to see quiet confidence, and excellence in performance, fail when it comes to gaining acceptance in new things.

All the best, James

 

[Insta-Gator]

My instructors know, James, . . . I just don't believe I owe an explanation of why sidemount is best for me, to a Internet world of strangers.

That isn't the point of this. The point is that I need to know the best way ahead to inspire confidence.

Just move down south where we get the whole SM idea.

 

[RTee]

Jax, for your consideration...

not being privied as to how well it went the first time, I will just bring some observations from a purely outsider's perspective. I will admit right from the start that I am not sidemount certified nor equipped. However, I do dive doubles with or without stage bottles (1 or 2).

I know that during my AN/DP course, we did practice OOA scenarios at which time either me or my instructor would give the OOA signal to the other diver which would then pass the appropriate reg (normally the one being used and on long hose) to theother, switch to back-up and then establish a firm hold on buddy to become one. Therefore I am not sure what thebig fuss is because as long as you hand me a working reg when I give you the OOA signal I should be happy. I remember the first time I ended up paired with somebody diving doubles. During the predive brief he made it quite clear that in an OOA situation he would hand me the bubbling one and switch to the one bungied around his neck. While this was quite different from basic rec diving procedure I was used to, I had no problem with it (blame it on the fact I was previously married (tongue in cheek)or probably more so because of my military training). Consequently I do find it strange that more advanced voir meme tech divers have a hard time adjusting to that.

Now…about inspiring confidence…normally divers expect other divers to be able to make it to the rear deck with most of their equipment including some tanks already attached to a harness of some sort such as single tank on BCD or BP,doubles on BP, etc, point to stages or other equipment that should accompany that diver, jump in, give Ok signal and then collect said equipment from deckhands. Based on what I have read, (and I could be wrong), it does not seem to be what is happening in your case as somebody else might have to carry your main tank to the rear deck where you would then clip it on, jump in and then collect your second tank, sea state permitting. If we went into role reversal, perhaps you would agree with me that it might not be the most re-assuring impression I would be projecting to the other divers in the group especially if in addition to that I was rusty. Therefore, right or wrong, they might be getting the idea that you can hardly take care of yourself(without dedicated sherpas) and the dive has not even started yet.

So even though your sidemount configuration might not be their business (including strangers like myself on SB) the impression being projected might not generate the same level of confidence you might expect from them based on their perception. Just food for thought.

 

[Jax]

Ah ha! I understand.


FWIW, I have yet to see quiet confidence, and excellence in performance, fail when it comes to gaining acceptance in new things.

All the best, James

That I will definitely strive to show . . . just need to dive with them more.

 

[Jax]

:shocked2: Dang you have some tiny-azz font!

Now…about inspiring confidence…normally divers expect other divers to be able to make it to the rear deck with most of their equipment including some tanks already attached to a harness of some sort such as single tank on BCD or BP,doubles on BP, etc, point to stages or other equipment that should accompany that diver, jump in, give Ok signal and then collect said equipment from deckhands. Based on what I have read, (and I could be wrong), it does not seem to be what is happening in your case as somebody else might have to carry your main tank to the rear deck where you would then clip it on, jump in and then collect your second tank, sea state permitting. If we went into role reversal, perhaps you would agree with me that it might not be the most re-assuring impression I would be projecting to the other divers in the group especially if in addition to that I was rusty. Therefore, right of wrong, they might be getting the idea that you can hardly take care of yourself(without dedicated sherpas) and the dive has not even started yet.

Sidemount doesn't work like that. While seated, I hook up my left tank. I've already dropped the right tank off or the Mexican Captain has done it for me (I tip well. ) I walk to the back deck and stride in. I move to the side of the deck, pull up my tank, put a hand through the loop and unclip, and mount the tank. No time taken away from the boat entry.

I sort of suspect that the doubles-wearing DIR type that just moved in from California is the one that expressed enough doubts to catalyze this to an issue. I might not have heard of the instructors doubts, otherwise.

So even though your sidemount configuration might not be their business (including strangers like myself on SB) the impression being projected might not generate the same level of confidence you might expect from them based on their perception. Just food for thought.

Just as I would want to be very sure of emergency techniques with a CCR diver, they want to be sure of emergency techniques with me. I have to go back and work that for them.

 

[Dive-aholic]

I'm thinking I would like to do a dive with them where we just did skills -- For example, (from the past) he thinks it takes far too long to stow my long hose after it has been fully deployed. I think I might have been a little off-handed with my answer, "In real life we don't restow them, so sidemount does not worry much about that." Perhaps instead, since we were in a training situation, I could have just stowed it down my waist like I do in a BP/W. I think I missed a 'concern' there.

I believe he thinks it would be more efficient to hand me the steel. I am very wary about that, because if it is cold, my hands get numb and I could possibly drop the bottle. I don't like that thought, and I thought that having a rope snapped on it was a good safety measure. And, also, that I got out of the way of the other divers as I completed getting in my rig. I could put a thumb or finger through the ring of the snap . . . I could break a thumb or a finger that way, too.

Do you think that if we did a few drills dives together, and worked through the emergency procedures numerous times, it would help?

Most definitely!!! You shouldn't have even found yourself in this scenario without doing some basic checkout dives in a more benign environment. An advanced wreck class is not the place to get introduced to new gear.

I know how you feel about your local instructor, but I've always felt and will always feel that an instructor has no business teaching students in configurations the instructor is not experienced in. There are special considerations that must be kept in mind that he knows nothing about because he has no experience diving sidemount. He is doing you an injustice by taking you into a class. He should have referred you to an instructor who dives sidemount.

Yes, it's your job to convince the instructor that you are competent enough to do the dives in the configuration you want to do it in. Being rusty because of a pool closure means the class should have been postponed, for you anyway. However, educating the other students in the class about the differences in the configurations and how to deal with them is the instructor's job. This is not something the instructor can do if he/she doesn't have extensive experience in sidemount, though.

I know it's tough getting the diving and training that you want to do done where you live, but sometimes you just need to accept that there are/will be limitations on this and accept it. You know I lived in Arizona for many years. I did a lot of diving there. Other than my basic recreational classes, all of my training and experience was elsewhere. I went to Texas to learn how to dive a dry suit. I went to NJ to learn how to dive wrecks. I went to Florida to learn how to dive caves. When I was in Arizona I did my basic skills dives and built my experience diving doubles and sidemount and running line and controlling my buoyancy and trim. But the real training and diving happened outside of Arizona. It's great to support your LDS, but once they can't provide you with what you need it's time to open up your options. They shouldn't take it personally.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Wow!! Are you kidding me. Why would you ADD a failure point to a system that doesn't need it? If swapping regs is too difficult than maybe they should scratch the whole idea. That system might be good in Mexico but after seeing 2 in action with steel tanks I can assure you it sucks and those poor guys who bought it agree. One m_ght return next week to buy a different rig so we hope to get video of it. The harness might be good with aluminum tanks but that diamond wing is just crap. I can't see this being nothing but a last resort system and know plenty that agree.

UTD Equipment - Z-Side-Mount System - +1 206 321-0870 or [email]sales@utdequipment.com[/email]

I've been in Chuuk Lagoon wreck diving for the past week with the Z-sidemount system; the long hose always stays in your mouth with the bungee'd backup always on standby around your neck per Hogarthian/DIR Practice --all possible because of the Z-manifold. The system is not any more complicated nor "prone" to failure than even a conventional isolation backmount manifold as some detractors would contend. . .

A Razor 2 diver I'm buddied with here in Chuuk has acknowledged the advantages of the Z-system above, and concedes that this is the best all-around open water wreck & cave diving kit set-up solution out on the market now. . .

 

[Kevrumbo]

Wow!! Are you kidding me. Why would you ADD a failure point to a system that doesn't need it? If swapping regs is too difficult than maybe they should scratch the whole idea. That system might be good in Mexico but after seeing 2 in action with steel tanks I can assure you it sucks and those poor guys who bought it agree. One m_ght return next week to buy a different rig so we hope to get video of it. The harness might be good with aluminum tanks but that diamond wing is just crap. I can't see this being nothing but a last resort system and know plenty that agree.

Because I want to retain the the functionality & familiarity of the the Hogarthian Long-Hose & Bungee'd necklaced backup that I've been taught since beginning wreck penetration classes with my SE Asia dive mates nearly six years ago --and keeping that configuration and deployment on demand is of paramount importance with my team. . .

(btw, How do you switch out regulators on conventional sidemount tanks --on-the-fly-- while piloting a scooter??? Not a problem or issue with the Z-sidemount system. . .]

Day 8 out of 10 today on the open water wrecks, 45 to 60 meters deep, of the IJN Fourth Fleet Anchorage in Chuuk Lagoon, and my Razor 2 buddy has switched back to conventional backmount for six of those days (he's very impressed with the sturdier wing & harness attachment design of the Z-system). . .

The 9kg/20lbs wing is just enough lift for two 11L (AL80's) tanks, and two 4.2L (AL30's) deco bottles in tropical 29deg C waters, on the surface pre-dive before descent, with a skin suit and no added lead weights.